The Exchanges

Q Now, can you get the ball rolling today by telling us how you made your move into the industry and started in tech?

A Yeah, so, so, I mean, I've been a geek since I was 12. I had a Commodore 64 that my dad bought, and I taught myself basic programming. Turns out being a geek is not very good for the girls, so I decided to kind of hide that until I got to college, um, where I got an economics degree, but I was taking computer science classes, teaching myself HTML, uh, and actually ended up in a technology startup, uh, right after university, which became famous or infamous, um, because we went public, had a thirty billion market cap valuation, And then lost 72% in one day. Um, which is a fantastic story when you're 24, you're running a team of 20 engineers for a product team, and you're a paper millionaire, and then you're not.

AI assessment note: “ended up in a technology startup, uh, right after university”

Q We mentioned there about the crunch, the Series A crunch. Do you think then that's a really big opportunity in the market? We just, you said four times the amount of seed funding, um, 1.4 times the amount of Series A. Is that because the quality of the startups themselves maybe aren't matching the Series A rounds, or is it just a lack of funding in that?

A I think it's both. So, A, there is a undercapitalization of the European ecosystem, and, and to be fair, the East Coast ecosystem as well, right? So we, we actually looked at these numbers. Active Series A funds, which for us meant funds that have done at least five Series A investments in the last three years. And we looked at West Coast versus New York versus, um, Europe. West Coast, I think that's something like a 140 active Series A funds. New York had like under 30, and this is New York Metro, and this includes West Coast funds investing in New York Metro, and all of Europe had like 42. Just even an absolute options of funding for Series A and later, it's, it's already fairly constrained compared to the Valley, um, And then if you talk about series B or let's say series C, you're raising, let's say a 20,000,030 million round in Europe. Who do you call locally? Five funds, maybe six funds. So I think we have a systemic, we've had a systemic issue around undercapitalization, which is being sold. I think it's actually been dozens of new funds of significant scale raised in the last couple of years. EIS and SEIS does mutate the UK ecosystem. Some of the guys that are getting seed funding from Goldman Sachs bankers, nothing wrong with Goldman Sachs bankers. Probably should not be getting Series A funding, right? It's not a VC fundable business, but it might be a nice lifestyle …

AI assessment note: “I think it's both. So, A, there is a undercapitalization of the European ecosystem”

Q We mentioned there about the crunch, the Series A crunch. Do you think then that's a really big opportunity in the market? We just, you said four times the amount of seed funding, um, 1.4 times the amount of Series A. Is that because the quality of the startups themselves maybe aren't matching the Series A rounds, or is it just a lack of funding in that?

A I think it's both. So, A, there is a undercapitalization of the European ecosystem, and, and to be fair, the East Coast ecosystem as well, right? So we, we actually looked at these numbers. Active Series A funds, which for us meant funds that have done at least five Series A investments in the last three years. And we looked at West Coast versus New York versus, um, Europe. West Coast, I think that's something like a 140 active Series A funds. New York had like under 30, and this is New York Metro, and this includes West Coast funds investing in New York Metro, and all of Europe had like 42. Just even an absolute options of funding for Series A and later, it's, it's already fairly constrained compared to the Valley, um, And then if you talk about series B or let's say series C, you're raising, let's say a 20,000,030 million round in Europe. Who do you call locally? Five funds, maybe six funds. So I think we have a systemic, we've had a systemic issue around undercapitalization, which is being sold. I think it's actually been dozens of new funds of significant scale raised in the last couple of years. EIS and SEIS does mutate the UK ecosystem. Some of the guys that are getting seed funding from Goldman Sachs bankers, nothing wrong with Goldman Sachs bankers. Probably should not be getting Series A funding, right? It's not a VC fundable business, but it might be a nice lifestyle …

AI assessment note: “I think it's both. So, A, there is a undercapitalization”

Q And then talking about the European ecosystem there, how have you seen it develop then since your time working in operations and now to working with White Star?

A I mean, A, yes, it's a, it's a seismic shift, even in the UK, right? The UK has traditionally been the most developed VC and startup market. Um, I think we ran the numbers the other day. Seed investments in the UK have gone up 10 X in the last five years. That's helped by EIS. That's helped by the kind of the momentum and the visibility of some of the successes. Um, But Series A had actually only gone up, I believe, 1.4 X in that same period. So kind of institutional money still isn't there, which leads a bit later on to why we created, why starting the model that we did. Now back then, oh nine, Berlin was in its infancy. Um, there were a couple of interesting companies, obviously there was rocket and the rocket mafia, uh, Christoph Mayer, who had sold gate five to Nokia doing his angel investments, but it's very different from like the behemoth that Berlin's become today. And then Stockholm has always been kind of unique, but Stockholm had this amazing talent, amazing ecosystem, and a fairly developed local VC community. And you now very clearly see how those three major hubs have become the central hubs of Europe. But you also see up in, I mean, Paris is, I think, underrated for what it is in terms of momentum and talent. Portugal getting a lot of buzz right now. Eastern Europe having some great success.

AI assessment note: “it's a seismic shift, even in the UK, right?”

Q And then what's your average check size? We've seen an expanding of the series A, you know, it used to be kind of three to five million a couple of years ago. Now it's more than 10 to 15 to 20 even. So, so what's the average check size for you? We said series A there, but what is that really?

A Yeah, and I think calling it C or series A or series B means nothing nowadays, because it really varies by geography. So for us, um, we come in with 500 K to five million check at the usual lingo, late seed. So you've built a product, this initial product market fits, um, you're effectively funding to actually scale that out and see whether it's stickiness. And then comes what would have been called a series A, where there's product market fit, and you're effectively trying to add fuel to acquire more customers and actually prove their works. So you can then really double down for series B. We have actually funded pre-product pre-launch companies. Um, at, at an earlier stage, but it's been because either the team has been amazing technically, or we've had a relationship with them, or we believe that the risk reward of what they're going after makes sense. So from, from White Star, it's a fairly decent blend of, you know, seed investments that we've doubled down on. A couple of examples include Dice, which is a ticketing app here in London.

AI assessment note: “we come in with 500 K to five million check at the usual lingo”

Q of consumer facing apps there, I hear a lot of startups pitching, pitching me and pitching VCs that I know And they say, we're going to focus on growth. We're all in on growth. Don't worry about revenue. It comes later. What are your thoughts on this? Can you have the two side by side? Or is it a, Is it a one or the other? What are your thoughts?

A Yeah. And this is the one where I get picked as the bad guy. Um, sometimes even at board meetings, but it's, it's, I don't think it's an either or, and I actually wrote a blog post about this because it got to the point where it was a repeated conversation I was having. Um, listen, the growth is important. And I mean, effectively having a consumer facing, uh, offering with, with, uh, network effects where one user gets you two users and you want to actually focus on, on tapping into that, that viral loop. But at some point, Last time I checked, you were starting a business. And last time I checked, the definition of a business was a self-sustaining entity that has revenues to pay for its costs. If you have no revenue, you're effectively assuming that for the rest of your life, you will be a not-for-profit or some VC or other funding source will come in and keep giving you cash. The counter argument always is, well, Google and Facebook focus on growth and they just grew and then they made money. And it's actually, if you look at the S-one from when they went public, that's actually not true. Three years after Launching in a dorm room, Facebook was making about eighty million dollars and quickly jumped to over three hundred million dollars and then took off. Google was actually profitable, I think, by year two or year three. The examples that they keep pointing to are actually no…

AI assessment note: “I don't think it's an either or”

Q Now, can you get the ball rolling today by telling us how you made your move into the industry and started in tech?

A Yeah, so, so, I mean, I've been a geek since I was 12. I had a Commodore 64 that my dad bought, and I taught myself basic programming. Turns out being a geek is not very good for the girls, so I decided to kind of hide that until I got to college, um, where I got an economics degree, but I was taking computer science classes, teaching myself HTML, uh, and actually ended up in a technology startup, uh, right after university, which became famous or infamous, um, because we went public, had a thirty billion market cap valuation, And then lost 72% in one day. Um, which is a fantastic story when you're 24, you're running a team of 20 engineers for a product team, and you're a paper millionaire, and then you're not.

AI assessment note: “actually ended up in a technology startup, uh, right after university”

Q And then what's your average check size? We've seen an expanding of the series A, you know, it used to be kind of three to five million a couple of years ago. Now it's more than 10 to 15 to 20 even. So, so what's the average check size for you? We said series A there, but what is that really?

A Yeah, and I think calling it C or series A or series B means nothing nowadays, because it really varies by geography. So for us, um, we come in with 500 K to five million check at the usual lingo, late seed. So you've built a product, this initial product market fits, um, you're effectively funding to actually scale that out and see whether it's stickiness. And then comes what would have been called a series A, where there's product market fit, and you're effectively trying to add fuel to acquire more customers and actually prove their works. So you can then really double down for series B. We have actually funded pre-product pre-launch companies. Um, at, at an earlier stage, but it's been because either the team has been amazing technically, or we've had a relationship with them, or we believe that the risk reward of what they're going after makes sense. So from, from White Star, it's a fairly decent blend of, you know, seed investments that we've doubled down on. A couple of examples include Dice, which is a ticketing app here in London.

AI assessment note: “we come in with 500 K to five million check”

Q And so what would you suggest for someone wanting to make a move into VC? Depends at what age and what level.

A Uh, and this goes back to actually my own path. And I knew, or I thought I knew that I wanted to go into VC at some point in my career. It was interesting. It's intellectually stimulating. I see no job that in 20 years from now will still keep Teaching me new things, the way that this does, and just, you have to learn so much every single day, and it's, it's awesome. Like, like, the intellectual stimulation is, I think, unbeatable. But I also knew that, that I didn't want to go in, um, an associate level or analyst level because the career path is fairly unknown. Like, even in Europe, you know, can you name more than 10 people who've gone from associate to partner in the ecosystem? So, if you see it as a role in which you learn And you get optionality across a bunch of different technologies, and you get to understand what you like, and maybe you then take a role as an entrepreneur, it might be the right path for you to do an analyst or associate job. And you look at Greg Marsh at One Fine Stay, um, you look at, um, Avid, who was at Excel, and then did Boutique, now at Google Ventures. There was a whole class of associates who actually all went and became entrepreneurs. Um, Chris Morton at List was actually part of that class as well. That's one career path. The second career path is you go and become a successful operator or CEO or founder of a company and then, um, come in. O…

AI assessment note: “The second career path is you go and become a successful operator”

Q Absolutely. And we spoke there about the New York ecosystem and the West Coast ecosystem. So, so talking about White Star specifically, then you have a transatlantic model, which is quite unusual. So why did you go for that transatlantic model with, with offices in New York too?

A It came from a range of backwards. So White Star was actually a legal entity that Eric, my partner and I were investing in. He'd started investing in, in, Oh, seven did things like beta works, dollar shave club. And then we started investing in 2012. And I, I think that I bought a percentage of, of his portfolio and put money into, into white stock. He was in New York. I was in London, but he's actually French Canadian having lived in Paris. I'm from El Salvador having worked in the West coast and then Europe. We had our whole career based on flights and Skype calls. And we were seeing a lot of entrepreneurs starting Europe, leave the engineering team here and then move to the States and set up commercial offices or actually move the whole team. And we were seeing more and more of them stop in New York rather than going all the way to the Valley because it could be closer to the team. So for us, it was actually playing the role as international bridge for the founders. Secondly, the, you know, we, we like markets that are well developed from the entrepreneur, entrepreneurial base, but underserved from the funding base. So we now with the fund, we do actually done zero investments in the West coast. We mainly hunt up and down the East coast and across Western Europe where there are a lot less, um, Competition, but also a lot less options for entrepreneurs to, to find a partner f…

AI assessment note: “for us, it was actually playing the role as international bridge for the founders.”

Q of consumer facing apps there, I hear a lot of startups pitching, pitching me and pitching VCs that I know And they say, we're going to focus on growth. We're all in on growth. Don't worry about revenue. It comes later. What are your thoughts on this? Can you have the two side by side? Or is it a, Is it a one or the other? What are your thoughts?

A Yeah. And this is the one where I get picked as the bad guy. Um, sometimes even at board meetings, but it's, it's, I don't think it's an either or, and I actually wrote a blog post about this because it got to the point where it was a repeated conversation I was having. Um, listen, the growth is important. And I mean, effectively having a consumer facing, uh, offering with, with, uh, network effects where one user gets you two users and you want to actually focus on, on tapping into that, that viral loop. But at some point, Last time I checked, you were starting a business. And last time I checked, the definition of a business was a self-sustaining entity that has revenues to pay for its costs. If you have no revenue, you're effectively assuming that for the rest of your life, you will be a not-for-profit or some VC or other funding source will come in and keep giving you cash. The counter argument always is, well, Google and Facebook focus on growth and they just grew and then they made money. And it's actually, if you look at the S-one from when they went public, that's actually not true. Three years after Launching in a dorm room, Facebook was making about eighty million dollars and quickly jumped to over three hundred million dollars and then took off. Google was actually profitable, I think, by year two or year three. The examples that they keep pointing to are actually no…

AI assessment note: “I don't think it's an either or”

Q Absolutely. And we spoke there about the New York ecosystem and the West Coast ecosystem. So, so talking about White Star specifically, then you have a transatlantic model, which is quite unusual. So why did you go for that transatlantic model with, with offices in New York too?

A It came from a range of backwards. So White Star was actually a legal entity that Eric, my partner and I were investing in. He'd started investing in, in, Oh, seven did things like beta works, dollar shave club. And then we started investing in 2012. And I, I think that I bought a percentage of, of his portfolio and put money into, into white stock. He was in New York. I was in London, but he's actually French Canadian having lived in Paris. I'm from El Salvador having worked in the West coast and then Europe. We had our whole career based on flights and Skype calls. And we were seeing a lot of entrepreneurs starting Europe, leave the engineering team here and then move to the States and set up commercial offices or actually move the whole team. And we were seeing more and more of them stop in New York rather than going all the way to the Valley because it could be closer to the team. So for us, it was actually playing the role as international bridge for the founders. Secondly, the, you know, we, we like markets that are well developed from the entrepreneur, entrepreneurial base, but underserved from the funding base. So we now with the fund, we do actually done zero investments in the West coast. We mainly hunt up and down the East coast and across Western Europe where there are a lot less, um, Competition, but also a lot less options for entrepreneurs to, to find a partner f…

AI assessment note: “playing the role as international bridge for the founders”

Q Mattermark, uh, 38% of your portfolio supposedly is in the mobile sector. That may or may not be accurate, but we would take everything with Mattermark as the truth for today. So, so what are your views on the evolution of mobile? We've just been into your office, seeing an array of phones, um, which are wonderful by the way. Um, so what's your view on the evolution of mobile?

A So I joke that I actually kept claiming that this was a year of mobile. Um, and the year of mobile was, doesn't seven when the iPhone launched. And right after that, when Android launched, because effectively that took a true computing platform That was fairly standardized and actually scale it out on a global basis versus having to code Java versions for literally dozens, if not hundreds of different types of devices and the high cost, plus a distribution platform through the app store, plus a monetization platform to sell the apps that was all taken care of by Apple and they charge you. So that also makes an ecosystem truly possible on a global scale. So combine that with the fact that we're all addicted and stuck to our phones and it's a computing device that we open up dozens of times per day. It's not a question for me of whether it's mobile first or mobile only. Mobile will be a strong component of any consumer facing offering. Um, I don't believe in mobile only. I actually think, and we saw it even at Facebook with, with Instagram, and we saw it with Path, we saw it with others. You do need to have a landing point on the web as well. It's a question of where you're going to have value, where you're going to transact versus where you're going to browse. We definitely focus on leverage or like companies that understand the distribution power of, Mobile and, and the ease of…

AI assessment note: “Mobile will be a strong component of any consumer facing offering.”

Q Mattermark, uh, 38% of your portfolio supposedly is in the mobile sector. That may or may not be accurate, but we would take everything with Mattermark as the truth for today. So, so what are your views on the evolution of mobile? We've just been into your office, seeing an array of phones, um, which are wonderful by the way. Um, so what's your view on the evolution of mobile?

A So I joke that I actually kept claiming that this was a year of mobile. Um, and the year of mobile was, doesn't seven when the iPhone launched. And right after that, when Android launched, because effectively that took a true computing platform That was fairly standardized and actually scale it out on a global basis versus having to code Java versions for literally dozens, if not hundreds of different types of devices and the high cost, plus a distribution platform through the app store, plus a monetization platform to sell the apps that was all taken care of by Apple and they charge you. So that also makes an ecosystem truly possible on a global scale. So combine that with the fact that we're all addicted and stuck to our phones and it's a computing device that we open up dozens of times per day. It's not a question for me of whether it's mobile first or mobile only. Mobile will be a strong component of any consumer facing offering. Um, I don't believe in mobile only. I actually think, and we saw it even at Facebook with, with Instagram, and we saw it with Path, we saw it with others. You do need to have a landing point on the web as well. It's a question of where you're going to have value, where you're going to transact versus where you're going to browse. We definitely focus on leverage or like companies that understand the distribution power of, Mobile and, and the ease of…

AI assessment note: “the year of mobile was, doesn't seven when the iPhone launched.”

Q And then talking about the European ecosystem there, how have you seen it develop then since your time working in operations and now to working with White Star?

A I mean, A, yes, it's a, it's a seismic shift, even in the UK, right? The UK has traditionally been the most developed VC and startup market. Um, I think we ran the numbers the other day. Seed investments in the UK have gone up 10 X in the last five years. That's helped by EIS. That's helped by the kind of the momentum and the visibility of some of the successes. Um, But Series A had actually only gone up, I believe, 1.4 X in that same period. So kind of institutional money still isn't there, which leads a bit later on to why we created, why starting the model that we did. Now back then, oh nine, Berlin was in its infancy. Um, there were a couple of interesting companies, obviously there was rocket and the rocket mafia, uh, Christoph Mayer, who had sold gate five to Nokia doing his angel investments, but it's very different from like the behemoth that Berlin's become today. And then Stockholm has always been kind of unique, but Stockholm had this amazing talent, amazing ecosystem, and a fairly developed local VC community. And you now very clearly see how those three major hubs have become the central hubs of Europe. But you also see up in, I mean, Paris is, I think, underrated for what it is in terms of momentum and talent. Portugal getting a lot of buzz right now. Eastern Europe having some great success.

AI assessment note: “Berlin was in its infancy... very different from like the behemoth that Berlin's become today.”

Q And so what would you suggest for someone wanting to make a move into VC? Depends at what age and what level.

A Uh, and this goes back to actually my own path. And I knew, or I thought I knew that I wanted to go into VC at some point in my career. It was interesting. It's intellectually stimulating. I see no job that in 20 years from now will still keep Teaching me new things, the way that this does, and just, you have to learn so much every single day, and it's, it's awesome. Like, like, the intellectual stimulation is, I think, unbeatable. But I also knew that, that I didn't want to go in, um, an associate level or analyst level because the career path is fairly unknown. Like, even in Europe, you know, can you name more than 10 people who've gone from associate to partner in the ecosystem? So, if you see it as a role in which you learn And you get optionality across a bunch of different technologies, and you get to understand what you like, and maybe you then take a role as an entrepreneur, it might be the right path for you to do an analyst or associate job. And you look at Greg Marsh at One Fine Stay, um, you look at, um, Avid, who was at Excel, and then did Boutique, now at Google Ventures. There was a whole class of associates who actually all went and became entrepreneurs. Um, Chris Morton at List was actually part of that class as well. That's one career path. The second career path is you go and become a successful operator or CEO or founder of a company and then, um, come in. O…

AI assessment note: “The second career path is you go and become a successful operator or CEO”

Q So would you agree with Ben Evans in saying that it's kind of the son of the solar system or, or not that pivotal in the ecosystem? Because you, you said that, you know, the web still has its presence and is very much still needed. Ben Evans slightly suggests that's not the case anymore and that it's all about mobile.

A So I think it's also different how you look at it on a global basis. So in the West, let's say in the US and Western Europe, desktop still has a role. But if you look at the guy who's coming online for the first time in Kenya, his first device to access the internet will be a low end smartphone. And maybe his last device he will ever use to access the internet will be some sort of portable device. So I think you need to think about different use cases where for some people computing will always happen inside a mobile device. And you saw that in China actually a fairly long time ago where, you know, QQ, um, the original Tencent app before WeChat was actually literally this all-encompassing consumer portal inside of a mobile device because that was the primary computing device. And by the way, I take anything that Bandit says as a truth. So, um, I, I, I do think that the mobile becomes the central hub on a global basis, but it has to be balanced with the right access point for what that service might be. And e-commerce is increasing, but still converts better on, on a bigger screen. But what's the difference now between a Chromebook that you can take with you at a very low cost and an iPad and a desktop? I think that's all blending.

AI assessment note: “I do think that the mobile becomes the central hub on a global basis”

Q So would you agree with Ben Evans in saying that it's kind of the son of the solar system or, or not that pivotal in the ecosystem? Because you, you said that, you know, the web still has its presence and is very much still needed. Ben Evans slightly suggests that's not the case anymore and that it's all about mobile.

A So I think it's also different how you look at it on a global basis. So in the West, let's say in the US and Western Europe, desktop still has a role. But if you look at the guy who's coming online for the first time in Kenya, his first device to access the internet will be a low end smartphone. And maybe his last device he will ever use to access the internet will be some sort of portable device. So I think you need to think about different use cases where for some people computing will always happen inside a mobile device. And you saw that in China actually a fairly long time ago where, you know, QQ, um, the original Tencent app before WeChat was actually literally this all-encompassing consumer portal inside of a mobile device because that was the primary computing device. And by the way, I take anything that Bandit says as a truth. So, um, I, I, I do think that the mobile becomes the central hub on a global basis, but it has to be balanced with the right access point for what that service might be. And e-commerce is increasing, but still converts better on, on a bigger screen. But what's the difference now between a Chromebook that you can take with you at a very low cost and an iPad and a desktop? I think that's all blending.

AI assessment note: “I do think that the mobile becomes the central hub on a global basis”

Q approach this hiring for the future? And I have to ask a personal one here. Is it not slightly ironic that the VC scene is, is so intent on hiring for the future and we hear it so much yet they're so intent on de-riskifying the most inherently risky asset class by Only hiring HBS grads. Sorry if you're listening to HBS grads, but, but you know what I mean?

A So yes, I think it is the hardest thing. I think that's where you need to rely on, on your board for their connections and actually think about advisors and board members that can help you find those roles or actually might've been in your shoes before and can help you think about how they did it. But it is the hardest thing. I think that one of the hardest decisions is the fact accepting that the guy that was with you or gal on day one is not likely to be that SVP of sales or even CTO that you might need to scale your company as you hit thirty million users. That's really hard, right? This is a, your partner is a person you've actually grown for the last couple of years. He might not believe it, and you might not believe it, but at some point that might become a reality. I think those are the really, really hard calls. The challenge is also if you're in a smaller ecosystem where the depth of talent isn't there. Actually, even in Europe, as developed as we've gotten, hiring a rockstar Facebook-level product manager, Is really hard. Like the depth of pool of experienced guys who are true, what I would call value type product managers just isn't there. So head of product is probably the hardest role to find, um, in Europe.

AI assessment note: “I think that's where you need to rely on, on your board for their connections”

Q And then we're also hiring for the future in the VC scene. What are your thoughts on that?

A So, so it's funny because, I mean, we are a, um, industry that effectively is set up to invest in disruption. We are linearly scalable, right? And I talked about this with the magic partner of a very successful European fund when I was starting up a white star about, you know, I'm like, how do you deal with those deal flow and actually the companies and how many boards you sit on? He's like, well, you hire more people. I can't be hiring more people because your fund is like 10 times the size of mine. Um, the, my inbox is, is, is literally scalable. It just gets More, more deal flows. My day is literally scalable. I can only have so many meetings. And then you only add more capacity by really having more resources to go to hunt for more deals or manage more companies. But that requires more funds, which leads to some of the management creep that we see on the VC side where people start getting bigger and bigger funds. There is some attempts to actually add technology to it. So there's a very famous algorithm from a corporate VC fund that's supposed to find the right company for them to go invest in. But at the end of the day, it's a very, still a very human game. The algorithm can give you signals, but it still needs to be a decision. And by the way, we are an asset class, and I mean, a financial asset class that is given money by institutional investors on the condition that we…

AI assessment note: “you only add more capacity by really having more resources to go to hunt”

Q approach this hiring for the future? And I have to ask a personal one here. Is it not slightly ironic that the VC scene is, is so intent on hiring for the future and we hear it so much yet they're so intent on de-riskifying the most inherently risky asset class by Only hiring HBS grads. Sorry if you're listening to HBS grads, but, but you know what I mean?

A So yes, I think it is the hardest thing. I think that's where you need to rely on, on your board for their connections and actually think about advisors and board members that can help you find those roles or actually might've been in your shoes before and can help you think about how they did it. But it is the hardest thing. I think that one of the hardest decisions is the fact accepting that the guy that was with you or gal on day one is not likely to be that SVP of sales or even CTO that you might need to scale your company as you hit thirty million users. That's really hard, right? This is a, your partner is a person you've actually grown for the last couple of years. He might not believe it, and you might not believe it, but at some point that might become a reality. I think those are the really, really hard calls. The challenge is also if you're in a smaller ecosystem where the depth of talent isn't there. Actually, even in Europe, as developed as we've gotten, hiring a rockstar Facebook-level product manager, Is really hard. Like the depth of pool of experienced guys who are true, what I would call value type product managers just isn't there. So head of product is probably the hardest role to find, um, in Europe.

AI assessment note: “accepting that the guy that was with you or gal on day one is not likely”

Q And then we're also hiring for the future in the VC scene. What are your thoughts on that?

A So, so it's funny because, I mean, we are a, um, industry that effectively is set up to invest in disruption. We are linearly scalable, right? And I talked about this with the magic partner of a very successful European fund when I was starting up a white star about, you know, I'm like, how do you deal with those deal flow and actually the companies and how many boards you sit on? He's like, well, you hire more people. I can't be hiring more people because your fund is like 10 times the size of mine. Um, the, my inbox is, is, is literally scalable. It just gets More, more deal flows. My day is literally scalable. I can only have so many meetings. And then you only add more capacity by really having more resources to go to hunt for more deals or manage more companies. But that requires more funds, which leads to some of the management creep that we see on the VC side where people start getting bigger and bigger funds. There is some attempts to actually add technology to it. So there's a very famous algorithm from a corporate VC fund that's supposed to find the right company for them to go invest in. But at the end of the day, it's a very, still a very human game. The algorithm can give you signals, but it still needs to be a decision. And by the way, we are an asset class, and I mean, a financial asset class that is given money by institutional investors on the condition that we…

AI assessment note: “you only add more capacity by really having more resources to go to hunt”