The Exchanges

Q So can you walk me through emotional and commodity being purely, you know, a cashmere jumper compared to toothbrushes?

A That's, that's, I mean, I think there's a lot of romance involved with, you know, convincing someone that they should pay a very high price and a high margin for something. You know, I think there is, there's a kind of transformative magic, uh, When you get a, you know, a beautiful object that you, from a brand that you really resonate, that really resonates with you, versus getting a toothbrush or a hammer. And I think you look at, like, Amazon being the, the undisputed heavyweights of, um, commodity commerce, I think haven't made as much headway into emotional commerce as you might expect, because it's, it's a different set of rules. You know, if you look at the margins that some of the brands are making, 90, 95% margins, you know, it's, it seems, it's very irrational To, um, to think that people would pay such a high margin in order to own this. But again, this is, we operate in a very irrational, highly emotional vertical. So part of it is, um, you know, shopping for leisure, the enjoyment of going through these destinations as these physical stores are. And a lot of it is about how brands tell stories that resonate with you as a customer, which creates that desirability, which is what encourages you to pay those margin. You know, we will know that a customer who sees the amazing undulating, you know, wooden floors of the Prada boutique in, in Soho, Are more likely to come …

AI assessment note: “there's a kind of transformative magic... versus getting a toothbrush or a hammer.”

Q and transition to VC with the knowledge that they've gained from their career in operations. However, as you said, you've done this the other way around, starting at Benchmark really, and then founding lists. So why did you do it this way? I mean, was there a thought process behind that? Uh, and what do you think that being a VC first enabled you to be a better entrepreneur at?

A So I mentioned that I was thinking about starting something at 16, then also maybe when I was 24, 25, close to starting something else. You know, as I kind of went through the process of how I'd begin something, there was just a lot of things that I was unsure about. You know, I'd never worked in consumer internet before. Uh, and my question was, how, what is the best way for me to kind of get answered some of these questions to take a bit of risk off the table so I can, you know, I thought about an MBA and thought, look, this is too generic and too expensive. And really spending time in BC seems to me like the perfect answer of like, I can, I can spend time with founders to learn how, you know, how they're succeeding and what they're failing in. I can spend time with, with the former partner, the partners at, at Alderton and Benchmark who kind of been through this before and some of them built some very meaningful businesses. Uh, I can meet other people who I can potentially hire And really it was, it was kind of a, I saw it as like a startup MBA in many ways, and thankfully they actually paid you for it, so that became my seed capital because I saved everything I earned. It was, uh, I mean, and I would recommend it to anyone. It was an incredibly valuable two years, which, you know, if we, if I hadn't done that, I don't think List would, would exist today.

AI assessment note: “really spending time in BC seems to me like the perfect answer”

Q So how would you, how would you look to address that retail experience itself? Would that be, uh, what would that look like for you?

A One of the most important things about the business is that we are completely technology and engineering led, quite a significant data science team, no operations, no logistics. We never touch product. You know, our view is that we can build a better experience using engineering data scientists, science, much like, uh, you know, the folks at Airbnb don't operate any hotels, the folks at Uber don't operate any cars. You know, the question for us is how do we use the data that's available on the web To build that better customer experience. You know, right now the inventory we're taking is what's available on e-commerce sites, but if we can start to bring on inventory from physical stores in the real world, then we can start doing some pretty interesting things around, uh, personalization. So we, you know, we track all sorts of customer, um, actions on the site. We try to get her personalized experience online, but maybe, you know, she's having brunch in the meat packing and, you know, she wants to have such, You know, we can kind of send her an alert saying, these items that you looked at are in store here in your size, or we noticed that you're looking for, you know, a white Martin Margiela shirt, you know, why don't you look at these ones here, or maybe she, she lands in Stockholm, you know, on holiday on the weekend, and we can send her a map saying, here's a shopping, here's…

AI assessment note: “if we can start to bring on inventory from physical stores in the real world”

Q um, consumers, um, building a brand kind of alignment with a, with a, with a company based on a in-store retail experience like Prada and seeing the floors, for example. So how then do Do you integrate with that branding, and do you look to build your own brand as, as list where people can buy those branded products, or do you look to kind of integrate with existing brands?

A Yeah, it's, it's a great question. So it's got to be both. We are fortunate to carry the world's most desirable brands, and those brands in aggregate spend many, many billions of dollars building these stories and establishing these emotional connections, such that when a customer comes onto list, a lot of the searches and journeys that we see are focused on a brand. I would like to buy, you know, a, uh, a Burberry coat. They already have that desire. They've seen, they've seen the Beckham children in the adverts, uh, or, or seen whatever product placement. And then we were there to help harvest that intent that has been built elsewhere. At the same time, you know, people look to, you know, the, the, the, the brand of the purchase destination also has to give the customer comfort that they're buying in a good place. So, you know, we think about this as well. We hired a CMO a few months ago and are beginning to invest more in our own brand marketing as well. So it's, it's a combination of the two, but we're fortunate that we can build our brand in part on top of The many wonderful brands that we already carry, and that gives us, you know, credibility and legitimacy in the industry from, from an early, uh, you know, from, from the early days when we started back in 2010.

AI assessment note: “So it's got to be both. We are fortunate to carry the world's most desirable brands”

Q And then who's been the biggest mentor for you throughout your career?

A Probably the more obvious answer would be Mark Evans. You know, he was one of the guys who hired me at Benchmark. You know, I worked, uh, with him on a number of e-commerce companies and other, other sort of digital, uh, consumer web businesses. You know, when it came to, to raising, raising, uh, around, you know, we were really excited to get Mark on the board. So, you know, it's sort of to get your former boss to become your boss again at the board. You have to really want that. And, uh, I'm really thrilled to be, uh, you know, to, to be working with him again, you know, in this sort of slightly different, um, relationship. But yeah, huge mentor for me.

AI assessment note: “Probably the more obvious answer would be Mark Evans.”

Q Mm-hmm. And for those of our listeners now that aren't aware, could you give us a 62nd synopsis of List, what you do, and why we should all use it?

A So, so, so List very simply is trying to be, you know, the easiest way to buy fashion online. Right now, fashion is split across thousands of stores and brands and boutiques all over the world, each with very small, fragmented inventories, and we bring them all together, and then try to build an experience on top of that inventory and Which will help you search or discover, make sure you never overpay. So it's kind of like what Spotify do for music, what Netflix has done for content, maybe what, what you look in, in, in, in travel, maybe what booking.com do as well. You know, and when I was at, at, at, at Alderton and Benchmark, we saw Ux, one of our portfolio companies, you know, really begin to, to grow as, uh, as the industry matured. One of Ux's interesting businesses was, uh, side businesses was building e-commerce, uh, websites and shipping operations. For the luxury Italian and French fashion brands. And really in 2009, we saw that there was going to be this explosion of, of different places to buy. And as that merchant layer became mature, we thought there's an opportunity to build an aggregating marketplace on top of that. So to give you an idea, we have about three or four million items. You know, most department stores have, you know, orders of magnitude less than that. So the 30 or 40,000, you know, we felt the market was right to build this, you know, leading marke…

AI assessment note: “List very simply is trying to be, you know, the easiest way to buy fashion online.”

Q Mm-hmm. And for those of our listeners now that aren't aware, could you give us a 62nd synopsis of List, what you do, and why we should all use it?

A So, so, so List very simply is trying to be, you know, the easiest way to buy fashion online. Right now, fashion is split across thousands of stores and brands and boutiques all over the world, each with very small, fragmented inventories, and we bring them all together, and then try to build an experience on top of that inventory and Which will help you search or discover, make sure you never overpay. So it's kind of like what Spotify do for music, what Netflix has done for content, maybe what, what you look in, in, in, in travel, maybe what booking.com do as well. You know, and when I was at, at, at, at Alderton and Benchmark, we saw Ux, one of our portfolio companies, you know, really begin to, to grow as, uh, as the industry matured. One of Ux's interesting businesses was, uh, side businesses was building e-commerce, uh, websites and shipping operations. For the luxury Italian and French fashion brands. And really in 2009, we saw that there was going to be this explosion of, of different places to buy. And as that merchant layer became mature, we thought there's an opportunity to build an aggregating marketplace on top of that. So to give you an idea, we have about three or four million items. You know, most department stores have, you know, orders of magnitude less than that. So the 30 or 40,000, you know, we felt the market was right to build this, you know, leading marke…

AI assessment note: “List very simply is trying to be, you know, the easiest way to buy fashion online.”

Q Ok, ok, ok, that's interesting. What was the biggest learning from the experience?

A Like very early on, bringing on a technical co-founder, probably the first major decision I had to make. I spent a lot of time with this guy who'd been a CTO from one of the portfolio companies at Bolton, you know, got to a point where we were going to work together and had done all this groundwork over many weeks and months, and he was coming in to sign the docs, uh, on Monday at three PM and Monday at one PM, I got a phone call saying, oh, I've taken a job somewhere else. And I had no idea he was thinking about something else or anything like that. He'd given me a verbal yes on the Friday. We talked about this and it was complete kick in the teeth. And, uh, I was working out of, out of Songkick's offices, and, uh, I was there at the coffee machine pouring myself a probably very strong cup of coffee, uh, with this look on my face trying to digest what had happened and what it was going to mean, and one of the founders of Songkick saw me there and asked me why I looked so bad, sat me down, and over half an hour told me, like, all the, all the, all the complexity and pain they had to deal with in the first, you know, six months of starting up that business. And it was a really valuable learning because it was just a realization that every company that you admire, uh, every company that's made it has, they've had to deal with, with like seemingly company crippling moments, you kn…

AI assessment note: “realization that every company that you admire, uh, every company that's made it has”

Q um, consumers, um, building a brand kind of alignment with a, with a, with a company based on a in-store retail experience like Prada and seeing the floors, for example. So how then do Do you integrate with that branding, and do you look to build your own brand as, as list where people can buy those branded products, or do you look to kind of integrate with existing brands?

A Yeah, it's, it's a great question. So it's got to be both. We are fortunate to carry the world's most desirable brands, and those brands in aggregate spend many, many billions of dollars building these stories and establishing these emotional connections, such that when a customer comes onto list, a lot of the searches and journeys that we see are focused on a brand. I would like to buy, you know, a, uh, a Burberry coat. They already have that desire. They've seen, they've seen the Beckham children in the adverts, uh, or, or seen whatever product placement. And then we were there to help harvest that intent that has been built elsewhere. At the same time, you know, people look to, you know, the, the, the, the brand of the purchase destination also has to give the customer comfort that they're buying in a good place. So, you know, we think about this as well. We hired a CMO a few months ago and are beginning to invest more in our own brand marketing as well. So it's, it's a combination of the two, but we're fortunate that we can build our brand in part on top of The many wonderful brands that we already carry, and that gives us, you know, credibility and legitimacy in the industry from, from an early, uh, you know, from, from the early days when we started back in 2010.

AI assessment note: “So it's got to be both. We are fortunate to carry the world's most desirable brands”

Q and transition to VC with the knowledge that they've gained from their career in operations. However, as you said, you've done this the other way around, starting at Benchmark really, and then founding lists. So why did you do it this way? I mean, was there a thought process behind that? Uh, and what do you think that being a VC first enabled you to be a better entrepreneur at?

A So I mentioned that I was thinking about starting something at 16, then also maybe when I was 24, 25, close to starting something else. You know, as I kind of went through the process of how I'd begin something, there was just a lot of things that I was unsure about. You know, I'd never worked in consumer internet before. Uh, and my question was, how, what is the best way for me to kind of get answered some of these questions to take a bit of risk off the table so I can, you know, I thought about an MBA and thought, look, this is too generic and too expensive. And really spending time in BC seems to me like the perfect answer of like, I can, I can spend time with founders to learn how, you know, how they're succeeding and what they're failing in. I can spend time with, with the former partner, the partners at, at Alderton and Benchmark who kind of been through this before and some of them built some very meaningful businesses. Uh, I can meet other people who I can potentially hire And really it was, it was kind of a, I saw it as like a startup MBA in many ways, and thankfully they actually paid you for it, so that became my seed capital because I saved everything I earned. It was, uh, I mean, and I would recommend it to anyone. It was an incredibly valuable two years, which, you know, if we, if I hadn't done that, I don't think List would, would exist today.

AI assessment note: “I saw it as like a startup MBA in many ways”

Q And then who's been the biggest mentor for you throughout your career?

A Probably the more obvious answer would be Mark Evans. You know, he was one of the guys who hired me at Benchmark. You know, I worked, uh, with him on a number of e-commerce companies and other, other sort of digital, uh, consumer web businesses. You know, when it came to, to raising, raising, uh, around, you know, we were really excited to get Mark on the board. So, you know, it's sort of to get your former boss to become your boss again at the board. You have to really want that. And, uh, I'm really thrilled to be, uh, you know, to, to be working with him again, you know, in this sort of slightly different, um, relationship. But yeah, huge mentor for me.

AI assessment note: “Probably the more obvious answer would be Mark Evans.”

Q So the funding process for you as a VC, you've done it before many times as an investor. How was it as a founder?

A It is, uh, I mean, it was definitely made easier for my time on the, on the VC side, not only because I had a number of relationships, which I built when I was there, which you're able to leverage when you're, when you're raising the fund. I mean, that will, raising the round rather, that will get you to a meeting. It certainly won't get you anything more than that. You know, I think we've also taken a very measured approach to the sorts of things that we want to see in our docs. So, you know, I started, I started funding, I started on the VC side in 2008. Sequoia had their RIP good times deck then, and it made quite an impression. And a lot of companies in oh six or seven had kind of overstretched in terms of valuations in terms of burn rate. And then in oh eight or nine ended up sucking down some pretty unattractive terms in order to like Prevent a down round or do some, maybe minimize the down round. And it was a pretty, it was a pretty negative cycle. You know, we've always been very focused on, you know, having the most vanilla term sheet we could, uh, not overstretching ourselves on valuation, you know, and of course, uh, when it comes to looking for partners, thinking about, you know, who's going to bring the most value and trying to, when you think about the board thinking, you know, you don't want You don't want, like, a homogenous board, you want to have different fol…

AI assessment note: “it was definitely made easier for my time on the, on the VC side”

Q So can you walk me through emotional and commodity being purely, you know, a cashmere jumper compared to toothbrushes?

A That's, that's, I mean, I think there's a lot of romance involved with, you know, convincing someone that they should pay a very high price and a high margin for something. You know, I think there is, there's a kind of transformative magic, uh, When you get a, you know, a beautiful object that you, from a brand that you really resonate, that really resonates with you, versus getting a toothbrush or a hammer. And I think you look at, like, Amazon being the, the undisputed heavyweights of, um, commodity commerce, I think haven't made as much headway into emotional commerce as you might expect, because it's, it's a different set of rules. You know, if you look at the margins that some of the brands are making, 90, 95% margins, you know, it's, it seems, it's very irrational To, um, to think that people would pay such a high margin in order to own this. But again, this is, we operate in a very irrational, highly emotional vertical. So part of it is, um, you know, shopping for leisure, the enjoyment of going through these destinations as these physical stores are. And a lot of it is about how brands tell stories that resonate with you as a customer, which creates that desirability, which is what encourages you to pay those margin. You know, we will know that a customer who sees the amazing undulating, you know, wooden floors of the Prada boutique in, in Soho, Are more likely to come …

AI assessment note: “when you get a beautiful object that resonates with you versus getting a toothbrush”

Q So the funding process for you as a VC, you've done it before many times as an investor. How was it as a founder?

A It is, uh, I mean, it was definitely made easier for my time on the, on the VC side, not only because I had a number of relationships, which I built when I was there, which you're able to leverage when you're, when you're raising the fund. I mean, that will, raising the round rather, that will get you to a meeting. It certainly won't get you anything more than that. You know, I think we've also taken a very measured approach to the sorts of things that we want to see in our docs. So, you know, I started, I started funding, I started on the VC side in 2008. Sequoia had their RIP good times deck then, and it made quite an impression. And a lot of companies in oh six or seven had kind of overstretched in terms of valuations in terms of burn rate. And then in oh eight or nine ended up sucking down some pretty unattractive terms in order to like Prevent a down round or do some, maybe minimize the down round. And it was a pretty, it was a pretty negative cycle. You know, we've always been very focused on, you know, having the most vanilla term sheet we could, uh, not overstretching ourselves on valuation, you know, and of course, uh, when it comes to looking for partners, thinking about, you know, who's going to bring the most value and trying to, when you think about the board thinking, you know, you don't want You don't want, like, a homogenous board, you want to have different fol…

AI assessment note: “it was definitely made easier for my time on the, on the VC side”

Q So how would you, how would you look to address that retail experience itself? Would that be, uh, what would that look like for you?

A One of the most important things about the business is that we are completely technology and engineering led, quite a significant data science team, no operations, no logistics. We never touch product. You know, our view is that we can build a better experience using engineering data scientists, science, much like, uh, you know, the folks at Airbnb don't operate any hotels, the folks at Uber don't operate any cars. You know, the question for us is how do we use the data that's available on the web To build that better customer experience. You know, right now the inventory we're taking is what's available on e-commerce sites, but if we can start to bring on inventory from physical stores in the real world, then we can start doing some pretty interesting things around, uh, personalization. So we, you know, we track all sorts of customer, um, actions on the site. We try to get her personalized experience online, but maybe, you know, she's having brunch in the meat packing and, you know, she wants to have such, You know, we can kind of send her an alert saying, these items that you looked at are in store here in your size, or we noticed that you're looking for, you know, a white Martin Margiela shirt, you know, why don't you look at these ones here, or maybe she, she lands in Stockholm, you know, on holiday on the weekend, and we can send her a map saying, here's a shopping, here's…

AI assessment note: “send her a map saying, here's a shopping trip you should do if you have time”

Q How did the rise of Asia's middle, ah, kind of, middle market economy affect your business, do you think? You know, we've seen a mass of higher earning Asian people, um, so how does that affect your sales, do you think? Is that the next big market for you to crack?

A Yeah, I mean, it's definitely something that's impossible to ignore. I mean, certainly, ah, you'll see in, in pretty much every shopping street in, in, in any big city in the US or in Europe, you know, you'll see a large, large volume of Chinese consumers Um, you know, partially they're, they're purchasing because of a price arbitrage that's just cheaper here, but there's no, there's no questioning that a lot of the sort of luxury fashion has captured the imagination of the sort of, you know, growing Chinese middle class and other areas in Southeast Asia. So, you know, we think about it a lot. You know, we're very sensitive to working with the brands to make sure that we're pricing products accordingly. So, so that's something that there's a big consideration for us. Whether we'll actually launch You know, I think at some point we'll have to go into China with sort of a Chinese language site. You know, I don't know when that's going to be. I think there's, there's definitely a lot of lessons from folks who've tried that and, and, and got burnt. Uh, you know, whether we want to do it ourselves or with a partner, again, I don't know. It's not something for the next 12 months, but, but again, very, very difficult to ignore. But again, when I look at the, the, the, the proposition we're building, absolutely I believe that there is, uh, an opportunity to, to, to build this customer …

AI assessment note: “at some point we'll have to go into China with sort of a Chinese language site.”

Q major artists at the beginning of the days. So, so how was that, um, getting big brands on board and on the list platform in the early days for you? What was the sell? Because, you know, when you've got your Pradas and Balenciagas, and, you know, you are a new fashion startup at the time, you know, not so reputable as you are now. How did you do that?

A It's a good question. One way to answer it is to think about where we actually started the business. So, you know, I actually grew up on the east coast of the States, although the accent disappeared a few years ago. You know, when you started the business, we asked, Seb and I thought, you know, do we want to start the business in the US, you know, in the west coast? Uh, and that was a pretty quick no, because there wasn't enough fashion DNA. But between New York and London was a harder conversation. The U S is our biggest market by a long way. So our customer is there, but we felt that we'd be able to build the best team in London because London has more success in fashion technology than any other city, certainly in the West. Uh, and also you sort of partnerships would be easier coming from Europe because we've got a two hour plane journey or train journey from Paris and Milan. And of course, London itself has a good piece of the fashion industry. And when it comes to fashion tech, uh, Net-A-Porter based here, ASOS based here, and actually the beginning, we were fortunate to build a relationship with Net-A-Porter, and Net-A-Porter, uh, you know, had many, uh, luxury brands already there, and so the strategy was work with the top tier multi-brand retailers. That then will give us a great cross-section of brands, and then we can go to the brands, we'll go to other retailers, and…

AI assessment note: “the strategy was work with the top tier multi-brand retailers”

Q major artists at the beginning of the days. So, so how was that, um, getting big brands on board and on the list platform in the early days for you? What was the sell? Because, you know, when you've got your Pradas and Balenciagas, and, you know, you are a new fashion startup at the time, you know, not so reputable as you are now. How did you do that?

A It's a good question. One way to answer it is to think about where we actually started the business. So, you know, I actually grew up on the east coast of the States, although the accent disappeared a few years ago. You know, when you started the business, we asked, Seb and I thought, you know, do we want to start the business in the US, you know, in the west coast? Uh, and that was a pretty quick no, because there wasn't enough fashion DNA. But between New York and London was a harder conversation. The U S is our biggest market by a long way. So our customer is there, but we felt that we'd be able to build the best team in London because London has more success in fashion technology than any other city, certainly in the West. Uh, and also you sort of partnerships would be easier coming from Europe because we've got a two hour plane journey or train journey from Paris and Milan. And of course, London itself has a good piece of the fashion industry. And when it comes to fashion tech, uh, Net-A-Porter based here, ASOS based here, and actually the beginning, we were fortunate to build a relationship with Net-A-Porter, and Net-A-Porter, uh, you know, had many, uh, luxury brands already there, and so the strategy was work with the top tier multi-brand retailers. That then will give us a great cross-section of brands, and then we can go to the brands, we'll go to other retailers, and…

AI assessment note: “the strategy was work with the top tier multi-brand retailers”

Q Absolutely. And I, I do have to dive on the interview process there with Benchmark. What was that like?

A Gosh, it's taken me back. It was like eight, nine years ago. I mean, it was, uh, I think I was very lucky that the team there were looking for quite a diverse group of junior folks. And we had one former investment banker, one former management consultant. You know, I was coming from, you know, working in, uh, This renewable startup, but also in a kind of crazy R&D company where we were making some suits of armor made of custard. That was one of the, one of the projects we did because, because custard is a non-Newtonian fluid, which behaves like a solid. You know, we also had the government give us vats of tetrahydrocannibal, which is the active ingredient in marijuana to, to do some testing and the impact of what that had on, on different people. And so it was a really unorthodox background, but the team there wanted a diverse group and thought that I could bring something that the banker and the Consultant didn't bring, and I think the three of us worked pretty well together, so I felt very lucky that they took, you know, took that jump. I had no finance experience at all, you know, I had, like, a math in my degree, and that was, you know, some basic accounting skills, and that was about it, and, uh, that was enough for them.

AI assessment note: “I think I was very lucky that the team there were looking for quite a diverse group”

Q Absolutely. And I, I do have to dive on the interview process there with Benchmark. What was that like?

A Gosh, it's taken me back. It was like eight, nine years ago. I mean, it was, uh, I think I was very lucky that the team there were looking for quite a diverse group of junior folks. And we had one former investment banker, one former management consultant. You know, I was coming from, you know, working in, uh, This renewable startup, but also in a kind of crazy R&D company where we were making some suits of armor made of custard. That was one of the, one of the projects we did because, because custard is a non-Newtonian fluid, which behaves like a solid. You know, we also had the government give us vats of tetrahydrocannibal, which is the active ingredient in marijuana to, to do some testing and the impact of what that had on, on different people. And so it was a really unorthodox background, but the team there wanted a diverse group and thought that I could bring something that the banker and the Consultant didn't bring, and I think the three of us worked pretty well together, so I felt very lucky that they took, you know, took that jump. I had no finance experience at all, you know, I had, like, a math in my degree, and that was, you know, some basic accounting skills, and that was about it, and, uh, that was enough for them.

AI assessment note: “the team there were looking for quite a diverse group of junior folks”