The Exchanges

Q Okay, so we have that meeting, we have that discussion. Somewhat, again, like, you said, let's, let's smash this podcast, so I'm just gonna go for the questions, and you can rip me if I'm going too far. Someone said that Postmates was running out of cash. This was like an emergency deal that landed super freaking well. Is that fair?

A No, no. Look, I, I, I actually love sort of defending the legacy here a little bit. You know, sometimes when you fight giants, they're, they're, they're, you know, the war can get nasty, and the info war is definitely part of that. So, first of all, let's just look at the facts. It's very easy. Uber obviously had to file an S-IV at the time that they purchased Postmates, and you can look it up. We had just under a hundred million dollars left in cash, and our negative gross profit margin was I think single digits. Two or three quarters later, we, we were profitable as a company. Positive cash flow. So we, we were in a, in a position that we didn't have to sell. As a matter of fact, we were planning to go public and would have probably been one of the last companies to do so before, ah, you know, the world ended. And, um, we had, we, we, we, we were excited about it. But when we looked at everything that was on the table, You know, there, there, we had done the best job we could for 10 years to grow an amazing company. I think it was in, to an extent, the furthest that we could have moved the company, and it probably was We believed it was best as part of something bigger because the market needed to consolidate at some point.

AI assessment note: “No, no. Look, I, I, I actually love sort of defending the legacy”

Q You guys then meet. Where do you meet? How does the meeting go? What are the thoughts?

A It was during COVID. We met at, uh, if my collection is correct, I think we met at Alta Plaza Park. It's sort of, I think it's a mean point between where we both lived at the time. A year and a half earlier, there were some preliminary discussions with the, with the Uber team, so there was some familiarity. Um, uh, but ultimately, I think it wasn't the right time for either, um, for either party. We raised more money, and I think Uber had to explore Uh, more what they want to and what they can do with Uber Eats. Ultimately, they had a change in leadership on the Uber Eats side. Pierre was now in charge and, and, um, I think Dara was very bullish, um, about Uber Eats, especially, um, because of COVID, right? Their, their, their rides business was basically non-existent. And with DoorDash being the, clearly the market leader, um, in most of the U.S., but not in, uh, California and certain regions that That are very, that are very attractive. Um, where we were the number one. I think they, they saw the great opportunity for consolidation, um, and, and, and the whole thing was, was very pleasant, I have to say.

AI assessment note: “I think we met at Alta Plaza Park.”

Q Okay, so we have that meeting, we have that discussion. Somewhat, again, like, you said, let's, let's smash this podcast, so I'm just gonna go for the questions, and you can rip me if I'm going too far. Someone said that Postmates was running out of cash. This was like an emergency deal that landed super freaking well. Is that fair?

A No, no. Look, I, I, I actually love sort of defending the legacy here a little bit. You know, sometimes when you fight giants, they're, they're, they're, you know, the war can get nasty, and the info war is definitely part of that. So, first of all, let's just look at the facts. It's very easy. Uber obviously had to file an S-IV at the time that they purchased Postmates, and you can look it up. We had just under a hundred million dollars left in cash, and our negative gross profit margin was I think single digits. Two or three quarters later, we, we were profitable as a company. Positive cash flow. So we, we were in a, in a position that we didn't have to sell. As a matter of fact, we were planning to go public and would have probably been one of the last companies to do so before, ah, you know, the world ended. And, um, we had, we, we, we, we were excited about it. But when we looked at everything that was on the table, You know, there, there, we had done the best job we could for 10 years to grow an amazing company. I think it was in, to an extent, the furthest that we could have moved the company, and it probably was We believed it was best as part of something bigger because the market needed to consolidate at some point.

AI assessment note: “No, no... We had just under a hundred million dollars left in cash”

Q That is insane. How did you come to the price when you were sitting with Dara? How does one price the asset that is Postmates at that stage? Does he throw out a number? Do you throw out a number? What does that look like?

A Well, I think it's probably a mix of last valuation, and then you look at multiple on forward-looking revenue and, and, and, and sort of a mixed bag, really. And I And I think he came, he came out with a number that was, that was around 2.2 or something, and, and, and, and we negotiated it up a little bit, but I didn't want it to push too hard, because the two things that we negotiated for are no breakup, Absolutely no way out and no color on the deal because we sort of knew that we, that the street would probably appreciate the acquisition and it did. Um, so, so those elements were more important to us than pushing the prize on paper to a three billion and maybe living with certain uncertainties.

AI assessment note: “he came out with a number that was, that was around 2.2”

Q That is insane. How did you come to the price when you were sitting with Dara? How does one price the asset that is Postmates at that stage? Does he throw out a number? Do you throw out a number? What does that look like?

A Well, I think it's probably a mix of last valuation, and then you look at multiple on forward-looking revenue and, and, and, and sort of a mixed bag, really. And I And I think he came, he came out with a number that was, that was around 2.2 or something, and, and, and, and we negotiated it up a little bit, but I didn't want it to push too hard, because the two things that we negotiated for are no breakup, Absolutely no way out and no color on the deal because we sort of knew that we, that the street would probably appreciate the acquisition and it did. Um, so, so those elements were more important to us than pushing the prize on paper to a three billion and maybe living with certain uncertainties.

AI assessment note: “he came out with a number that was around 2.2 or something”

Q then we have the earn out and, you know, kind of progressing through that. Bluntly, you then have, you know, a good amount of money and you're thinking about what to do next. Talk to me about the decision making process there, Basti. You could have done anything. You could stay at Uber. It could be a big time exec. You could do nothing. What was the decision making process?

A Well, I tried to do nothing. Um, And, and, but, but if you have a family, then, you know, even, it's, it's hard to find time to do nothing, because, uh, you know, you, you, you obviously get roped into all sorts of activities, and soon you discover that it, that it's great fun. Um, so, so for a while, I, I was, I was just, I was just enjoying that. But you, you, if, if your mind keeps wondering, um, About things that, that could be done and ideas that, that you could work on. I love building products and I love, I love running teams and I love being in a room full of engineers and, and, and working on ideas and see things come to life. And so I, I, I try to do the investing thing and, you know, I do some investments, but it, it, it, it does not derive me the same, the same amount of, of amount of joy than, Then actively building something.

AI assessment note: “does not derive me the same amount of joy than actively building something”

Q You said another thing, final one on fundraising, but you said when you feel like you have to convince someone to really work hard on your space or to convince someone, walk away. Why is that? Why, why is having to educate your investor a bad thing?

A Now, I'm a, I'm a little jaded here, so, but one is allowed to be, to be jaded or influenced by, um, um, one own experience, even though I try to, uh, uh, separate these things a lot. I, I, I do, I do believe that there's unlimited amount of capital out there, and I believe that it is easier and it's better, and it's better worth your time by focusing on the people that initially believe in that than, than trying to ride two or three rounds with the same VC firm and spend, uh, two hours going into unit economics Uh, where the outcome of any of these meetings will evidently be that they write down the unit economics neatly and then invest in your competitor. So I think it is very important to understand when a VC is trying to understand your business or when a VC is trying to understand your business in, in, in, in, in, in the, to the extent of also another business at the same time. And so oftentimes When you spend a lot of time, and you feel like every meeting, you have to, you have to really dig, dig incredibly deep. Again, if you are a VC that needs that much conviction, regardless of the check size, um, Uh, already, already a red flag.

AI assessment note: “outcome of any of these meetings will evidently be that they... invest in your competitor”

Q I love it. Final one. You mentioned timescales actually taking longer. I am just intrigued. You said to me before, And you said, sorry, on Twitter before, not developing AI fast enough is what will kill us, not the other way around. What did you mean by that?

A We are already facing, and we will continue to face dramatic, uh, challenges, obviously, as a country, as, but also as people. And, uh, on this planet, moving to a new planet, um, uh, if we want to be multi-species, I think the challenge is ahead of us. We need to develop all the technology we can to solve them, to engineer ourselves out of global warming, to make decisions based on Uh, uh, data and guidance that we can get from better software, um, getting to Mars, uh, all of that. I think it's essential that we make great strides in AI. The, the risk is not that there, that there will be an evil AI that will kill us. I think the risk will be that by not becoming more intelligent and using these intelligent tools will become extinct.

AI assessment note: “by not becoming more intelligent and using these intelligent tools will become extinct”

Q Okay. For founders listening, when your competitors raise a lot of money, should they raise it too? Or is it just a race to the bottom then on cash? What are your lessons on when comps raise that you give to founders?

A Well, I think it entirely depends on the situation. In our case, I think what happened is that We opened up this market of on-demand delivery, and, and by the time competitors came along, and by the time competitors had their first funding round, and by the time everybody saw the potential, there was an inflection point in the market when the only thing that mattered was more capital to do more advertising. You, you, you have to understand that this was, I think, the largest consumer battleground for, for five to six years. Billions of dollars deployed in, in advertising, in marketing, In grabbing market share. But, and this is something that from the outside was hard to understand, but it is the reason why ultimately almost every VC firm invested in one of the players. The fundamentals of, I think, the companies, and I can, I, I know this for us, but I, I have some insight in the other players. They were all pretty sound, and by that I mean there was a clear path to profitability. There was a clear understanding of unit economics, how they work, where the gross margins need to be, and all, all three companies, I think, had people that could execute very well against the goals. So that is a moment in time when You should raise a lot of money.

AI assessment note: “So that is a moment in time when You should raise a lot of money.”

Q I love it. Final one. You mentioned timescales actually taking longer. I am just intrigued. You said to me before, And you said, sorry, on Twitter before, not developing AI fast enough is what will kill us, not the other way around. What did you mean by that?

A We are already facing, and we will continue to face dramatic, uh, challenges, obviously, as a country, as, but also as people. And, uh, on this planet, moving to a new planet, um, uh, if we want to be multi-species, I think the challenge is ahead of us. We need to develop all the technology we can to solve them, to engineer ourselves out of global warming, to make decisions based on Uh, uh, data and guidance that we can get from better software, um, getting to Mars, uh, all of that. I think it's essential that we make great strides in AI. The, the risk is not that there, that there will be an evil AI that will kill us. I think the risk will be that by not becoming more intelligent and using these intelligent tools will become extinct.

AI assessment note: “risk will be that by not becoming more intelligent and using these intelligent tools”

Q How, how old were you and did that impact you?

A Oh yeah, I think it impacted me tremendously. I was, I think I was six, um, and my brother must have been like, uh, almost three. I had a pretty, um, a pretty perfect life up to that point. Um, and, um, you know, After that, it, I think it got, it got a lot more, um, you know, complicated. Um, you know, I, my mom, um, we wanted to be with my mom. Uh, she, she has been there for us, and I, she's, she's the person I love the most, uh, in my life, and she was just a remarkably strong woman. Never talked bad about my dad, even though there were a lot of things that, that he did that would have made it easy for her, um, to discuss them with us. But she just, she just plowed on, and I think he gave literally Uh, the next, you know, 18 years of her life, uh, to make sure that, to make sure that we are, um, you know, grow up to be, to be two capable, capable boys, right?

AI assessment note: “I think it impacted me tremendously. I was, I think I was six”

Q Mothers are the most incredible thing. Um, can I, you mentioned the three jobs that she had there. Is that where you think you got your grit and steeliness and ambition from? Where do you think about the source of where you got that? Master.

A You probably got to suffer a little bit, um, you know, to be resilient, so it, it probably has to do with that. One morning I grew, I, I woke up, and I forgot how old I was. It must have been older, so at a time when I, I must have been around 14, and my mom wasn't there. It was early in the morning, and I waited for her that, that she came back, and, and she told me that she had to do another job In the morning to help clean a building somewhere, because we just didn't have enough money at the time, and I, and I couldn't believe it, because you, you have to understand that, but when I say that we grew up modest, I'm not talking about a level that it was apparent to me every day. Things were limited, but not, I, I wouldn't walk around and feeling poor, but I, I think I didn't realize how tight things were, and, and, and, and until I, until we talked about that, and until she told me that. I remember that, that, that I said, you know, I, I will, I will make so much money that my mom can have whatever she wants, and, and, and, and it was incredibly important to me, um, to make sure that she has whatever she needs as soon as I could do that.

AI assessment note: “I said, you know, I will make so much money that my mom can have whatever”

Q Can I ask you a, again, a final one, and then we're gonna move to new company. Um, someone messaged me and said, basically, Dara's written off the Drizzly in the Postmates acquisition. What does Pastian think? How do you think about that? And was that right? Does that feel good? Like, what are the thoughts?

A So first of all, I, I, I couldn't care less about it because, you know, I, I'm not, In charge at Uber, and I don't run the company, and however, however, uh, um, Dara wants to run the company, he probably will do what's best for the company. Uh, but I, I see no signs of the Postmates acquisition, uh, being written off because I think the brand is very strong. Uh, it continues to be very strong in LA. Um, and unless I haven't gotten the, uh, the memo that they're, that they're shutting Postmates down, I think it, it continues to be, to be a great brand. Maybe ultimately is smart to consolidate to one brand, but they probably know when to do, when to do that best themselves. When we discussed the merger, we, we, we sort of had this idea that you leave these brands, you start uniting the tech underneath, and then at some point it's the same product, but it sort of has a, basically a different name. And, and, and that's, that's literally like the one difference. And you, you can use these brands to maybe appeal to slightly different audiences. Um, And, and, but if they change their mind, then that's fine. Maybe I can buy the domain back.

AI assessment note: “I see no signs of the Postmates acquisition, uh, being written off”

Q then we have the earn out and, you know, kind of progressing through that. Bluntly, you then have, you know, a good amount of money and you're thinking about what to do next. Talk to me about the decision making process there, Basti. You could have done anything. You could stay at Uber. It could be a big time exec. You could do nothing. What was the decision making process?

A Well, I tried to do nothing. Um, And, and, but, but if you have a family, then, you know, even, it's, it's hard to find time to do nothing, because, uh, you know, you, you, you obviously get roped into all sorts of activities, and soon you discover that it, that it's great fun. Um, so, so for a while, I, I was, I was just, I was just enjoying that. But you, you, if, if your mind keeps wondering, um, About things that, that could be done and ideas that, that you could work on. I love building products and I love, I love running teams and I love being in a room full of engineers and, and, and working on ideas and see things come to life. And so I, I, I try to do the investing thing and, you know, I do some investments, but it, it, it, it does not derive me the same, the same amount of, of amount of joy than, Then actively building something.

AI assessment note: “it does not derive me the same... amount of joy than, Then actively building something.”

Q Okay. Um, now you start a second company then. What are the single biggest pros? If we start on positives, what are the biggest pros of being a second time founder, Basti?

A So if, if you're a second time founder that has returned capital, I think you have a, a, obviously a set of pros that it's very easy to raise money. You can select the people that you want to work with on your next company. It is fairly, it is fairly easy to assemble a team because you have done certain things. You don't know how to be successful again, but you, you, you know how to run a lot of, a lot of the processes and a lot of the red tape and a lot of the things that would really consume you the first time around. And now you, you, you know how to do these things. And so, so you, you, you can be, you can be, you can be fairly efficient. Uh, in, in, in getting started.

AI assessment note: “it's very easy to raise money. You can select the people that you want”

Q of the, Interesting elements is venture value add. A lot of founders say, oh, I'm thinking about this VC or that VC because they bring this and this and this. How do you think about venture value add? And you've said before the best VCs in the world are humble enough to realize that they're not going to change the outcome. How do you advise founders on venture value add?

A Well, first of all, I, I think that statement is, is completely correct. And, uh, and, and, and, and it is, it is my fundamental belief. The greatest VCs that I have met are the people that, that know this. When I, when, when the company was, was bought, when the deal got closed, I remember having coffee with Brian Singerman, and we both lived in Noe Valley at the time, so, and I was curious. I'm like, hey, how is it being a VC? What's, how do you do it at Founders Fund? Do you think I could do it? And I think he said something, he said, I don't know if you can do it, but I don't think you can do it, and I don't think he would be good at it. And I'm like, and I'm like, I'm like, why do you think that? He's like, well, you care too much. Like you're an operator. You want to, you believe that you can change things and you can do that when you're running your company. But you would look at in, when you're an investor, you have to realize that there's nothing you can do. It doesn't matter. So at Founders Fund, they, they obviously believe in this very deeply. We just saw this, um, um, Um, obviously with, with Keys leaving there and, and being somewhere else, they, they, the, the, the belief is that there is very little you can do to actually move the needle, other than writing the check. And then, in the best case, you stay out of the way, and that's why they believe that board sea…

AI assessment note: “the belief is that there is very little you can do to actually move the needle”

Q Okay. For founders listening, when your competitors raise a lot of money, should they raise it too? Or is it just a race to the bottom then on cash? What are your lessons on when comps raise that you give to founders?

A Well, I think it entirely depends on the situation. In our case, I think what happened is that We opened up this market of on-demand delivery, and, and by the time competitors came along, and by the time competitors had their first funding round, and by the time everybody saw the potential, there was an inflection point in the market when the only thing that mattered was more capital to do more advertising. You, you, you have to understand that this was, I think, the largest consumer battleground for, for five to six years. Billions of dollars deployed in, in advertising, in marketing, In grabbing market share. But, and this is something that from the outside was hard to understand, but it is the reason why ultimately almost every VC firm invested in one of the players. The fundamentals of, I think, the companies, and I can, I, I know this for us, but I, I have some insight in the other players. They were all pretty sound, and by that I mean there was a clear path to profitability. There was a clear understanding of unit economics, how they work, where the gross margins need to be, and all, all three companies, I think, had people that could execute very well against the goals. So that is a moment in time when You should raise a lot of money.

AI assessment note: “Well, I think it entirely depends on the situation.”

Q You said before that Dar is one of the best non-founder CEOs alive. I'd love to unpack that. Why do you think that is? What makes him so good in your mind?

A He has an ability to give the people that work for him A lot of autonomy. And, and when I started, when I started working with him and see how he works at first, I thought that that was a weakness. Um, Ben, and I had this feeling like, man, he's not really that involved in all of these things, but it, boy, I, I think it's just a great way of how he leads the company and, and, and he, he, he is involved, but not to the extent that I was involved or that I thought people would be involved, but he rewards A, a, a group of people, um, with, with trust, and it, he, he has more than often, uh, he has more, he, he, he picked a lot of good people, um, that, that ended up working for him, that executed very well. So, it, that's sort of an aspect. I think he, he's also, um, calculated risk taker. I think, um, when he took over the job, I think he had a pretty good understanding that he can Probably turn the company around and what needed to get done more so than, than the street understood and would give him credit for. I think he has, um, maneuvered, uh, legislation, um, uh, any sort of cultural issues in the company, external expectations very well. And a, uh, for, for, for non-founder CEO, he really has, I think he has made this company his. And, and you, the, the, what is remarkable is if you have people two, three years ago that talk about it, they're like, ah, Dara, you know, at so…

AI assessment note: “He has an ability to give the people that work for him A lot of autonomy.”

Q Can I ask you a, again, a final one, and then we're gonna move to new company. Um, someone messaged me and said, basically, Dara's written off the Drizzly in the Postmates acquisition. What does Pastian think? How do you think about that? And was that right? Does that feel good? Like, what are the thoughts?

A So first of all, I, I, I couldn't care less about it because, you know, I, I'm not, In charge at Uber, and I don't run the company, and however, however, uh, um, Dara wants to run the company, he probably will do what's best for the company. Uh, but I, I see no signs of the Postmates acquisition, uh, being written off because I think the brand is very strong. Uh, it continues to be very strong in LA. Um, and unless I haven't gotten the, uh, the memo that they're, that they're shutting Postmates down, I think it, it continues to be, to be a great brand. Maybe ultimately is smart to consolidate to one brand, but they probably know when to do, when to do that best themselves. When we discussed the merger, we, we, we sort of had this idea that you leave these brands, you start uniting the tech underneath, and then at some point it's the same product, but it sort of has a, basically a different name. And, and, and that's, that's literally like the one difference. And you, you can use these brands to maybe appeal to slightly different audiences. Um, And, and, but if they change their mind, then that's fine. Maybe I can buy the domain back.

AI assessment note: “I see no signs of the Postmates acquisition, uh, being written off”

Q I, when, I'm, I'm sorry for jumping around. When, when the money does land, does it land in one go? Do you get like, no, I'm being serious. So do you just get like a notification light here? Is like, you know, at Six million dollars. And you're like, wow, that's great. Or does it come in drip feeds? How long does it take? Like, just how does it work?

A What's really interesting is that you think it's this moment, but, but it's sort of, it's, it almost takes, the whole thing almost takes a year. So you're like, you sign a deal. And then of course, you know, DOJ, in our case, the DOJ had a few questions and, and, uh, they, they submitted Uh, a request, and, and we had to answer that, and, and then the, then you get to go, and then the deal closes, and then there is a company called Shareworks that, that, that deals with the transition of shares between, between two parties, and, and they take custody, you get access to it, and, and then, uh, some, there's a clawback, uh, in our case, it was a, it was, there was no clawback, I believe, Um, a, a, a company-wide clawback, but we just had a, a, a small amount of shares that would, that did vest after like three months or something. So just after, after a transition period. But yeah, at some point you, your bank calls you and says like, yeah, we got your shares. Do you, do you want to see your, do you want to see your bank account? I guess that's what they ask you, yeah.

AI assessment note: “it almost takes a year. So you're like, you sign a deal.”

Q Are you long or short on the Vision Pro?

A On the Vision, as it is, how it is today? I, short. I think it's a product in search of a market. Um, It may have a fantastic application in science and in medicine and to a less degree, uh, in, in, in media. Um, and I think it is just a product that doesn't bring us together in the way where, uh, regardless of all its neat technology and the fake eyes and, and all of these things. You know what? I think Apple knows this, obviously, but because they're, they have incredible people working for them. But the app that would change or the, the hardware that would change would just be inrecognizable different from your regular reading glasses and it, and it would have unlimited battery life, overlay of information, um, anything that you can imagine in, in like a very subtle way. Um, that would, I think it would be a great tool.

AI assessment note: “On the Vision, as it is, how it is today? I, short.”

Q You said before that Dar is one of the best non-founder CEOs alive. I'd love to unpack that. Why do you think that is? What makes him so good in your mind?

A He has an ability to give the people that work for him A lot of autonomy. And, and when I started, when I started working with him and see how he works at first, I thought that that was a weakness. Um, Ben, and I had this feeling like, man, he's not really that involved in all of these things, but it, boy, I, I think it's just a great way of how he leads the company and, and, and he, he, he is involved, but not to the extent that I was involved or that I thought people would be involved, but he rewards A, a, a group of people, um, with, with trust, and it, he, he has more than often, uh, he has more, he, he, he picked a lot of good people, um, that, that ended up working for him, that executed very well. So, it, that's sort of an aspect. I think he, he's also, um, calculated risk taker. I think, um, when he took over the job, I think he had a pretty good understanding that he can Probably turn the company around and what needed to get done more so than, than the street understood and would give him credit for. I think he has, um, maneuvered, uh, legislation, um, uh, any sort of cultural issues in the company, external expectations very well. And a, uh, for, for, for non-founder CEO, he really has, I think he has made this company his. And, and you, the, the, what is remarkable is if you have people two, three years ago that talk about it, they're like, ah, Dara, you know, at so…

AI assessment note: “He has an ability to give the people that work for him A lot of autonomy.”

Q Why would you need a computer separate in the home for that? Surely the, the preferences, the data would be stored in a cloud provider, very much like having an open AI account that has your personalizations and preferences baked into that.

A No, actually not. For two reasons. First of all, you want the, you want the inference to happen as closest to the source of data as possible. And I like to argue that once a model is trained, inference Then, well, you get all the signals from your house, from your life, and in that moment is actually when inference is, is the most powerful. You, if you have data in the cloud and you need to computing on that data, sure, but, but not if it's, not if it's, not if it's data that is maybe to do around your home. Inference is very powerful the closer it is to the source of data. I mean, given that you, if you think about a personal assistant, the personal assistant needs a lot of information about you and inputs, That's why you would see that at home. It also is the only way right now to do it cost effectively. If you have personalized weights, if you have personalized numbers, your LLM in the cloud will cost a lot of money, and it, and it can't even do things real time right now for you because of the cost. You can run it at home, and the only cost is your electricity. That's another reason that I believe that this is, uh, in a weird world, I talked to a few founders about this, uh, Uh, over the last couple of weeks, a lot of folks are convinced that this is sort of when you had these huge timeshare mainframe, and you had to go into them, and you, you had to pay per minute, and you…

AI assessment note: “No, actually not. For two reasons. First of all, you want the”

Q Why? Like, why could you not have done more, Basi? You're a steady founder. You're an ambitious guy. You're a great CEO. Was it tempting to go it alone?

A Yeah, absolutely. But, um, and, and I, I had a great belief that, that, that we could continue as a standalone company, but ultimately, you know, I think I put the ego a little aside and, uh, and, and, and it's not, it's not easy. I wanted to be CEO of a publicly traded company. I was looking forward to that because I, it would have been this, this really nice, and I think I would do a great job at it and I may get another shot at it. But, um, it, it just, it just wasn't supposed to be, and I think, and I think overall, look, you, you have to, here's another thing that I think people don't fully understand. We negotiated the deal so well, there was no color on the deal. By the time the deal closed, it was almost five billion dollars. Right. So, uh, which is amazing. And you asked.

AI assessment note: “Yeah, absolutely. But... ultimately, you know, I think I put the ego a little aside”

Q I, when, I'm, I'm sorry for jumping around. When, when the money does land, does it land in one go? Do you get like, no, I'm being serious. So do you just get like a notification light here? Is like, you know, at Six million dollars. And you're like, wow, that's great. Or does it come in drip feeds? How long does it take? Like, just how does it work?

A What's really interesting is that you think it's this moment, but, but it's sort of, it's, it almost takes, the whole thing almost takes a year. So you're like, you sign a deal. And then of course, you know, DOJ, in our case, the DOJ had a few questions and, and, uh, they, they submitted Uh, a request, and, and we had to answer that, and, and then the, then you get to go, and then the deal closes, and then there is a company called Shareworks that, that, that deals with the transition of shares between, between two parties, and, and they take custody, you get access to it, and, and then, uh, some, there's a clawback, uh, in our case, it was a, it was, there was no clawback, I believe, Um, a, a, a company-wide clawback, but we just had a, a, a small amount of shares that would, that did vest after like three months or something. So just after, after a transition period. But yeah, at some point you, your bank calls you and says like, yeah, we got your shares. Do you, do you want to see your, do you want to see your bank account? I guess that's what they ask you, yeah.

AI assessment note: “the whole thing almost takes a year. So you're like, you sign a deal.”

Q You said another thing, final one on fundraising, but you said when you feel like you have to convince someone to really work hard on your space or to convince someone, walk away. Why is that? Why, why is having to educate your investor a bad thing?

A Now, I'm a, I'm a little jaded here, so, but one is allowed to be, to be jaded or influenced by, um, um, one own experience, even though I try to, uh, uh, separate these things a lot. I, I, I do, I do believe that there's unlimited amount of capital out there, and I believe that it is easier and it's better, and it's better worth your time by focusing on the people that initially believe in that than, than trying to ride two or three rounds with the same VC firm and spend, uh, two hours going into unit economics Uh, where the outcome of any of these meetings will evidently be that they write down the unit economics neatly and then invest in your competitor. So I think it is very important to understand when a VC is trying to understand your business or when a VC is trying to understand your business in, in, in, in, in, in the, to the extent of also another business at the same time. And so oftentimes When you spend a lot of time, and you feel like every meeting, you have to, you have to really dig, dig incredibly deep. Again, if you are a VC that needs that much conviction, regardless of the check size, um, Uh, already, already a red flag.

AI assessment note: “better worth your time by focusing on the people that initially believe in that”

Q Is Apple not best placed? If you think about being closest to the source as being fundamental, is Apple's monopoly on hardware and phone usage and device, not putting them best place to run these models locally on device.

A A couple of more hot takes that most people will not agree with, and I'm happy to be wrong. I think the phone is dead. That's the first problem that, that will, that will, that will, that will happen very soon. I believe that AI happened too fast and Apple is caught in sort of the inventor's dilemma here. Uh, I'm sure that they could eventually put an additional chip in an iPhone that does inference and, And, and, and allows you to run these models more efficiently, but I, I, I doubt that it will be interesting enough for the group of people that I have in mind and, and, and that, that want to tinker with, with the technology, so.

AI assessment note: “I think the phone is dead. That's the first problem”

Q Are you long or short on the Vision Pro?

A On the Vision, as it is, how it is today? I, short. I think it's a product in search of a market. Um, It may have a fantastic application in science and in medicine and to a less degree, uh, in, in, in media. Um, and I think it is just a product that doesn't bring us together in the way where, uh, regardless of all its neat technology and the fake eyes and, and all of these things. You know what? I think Apple knows this, obviously, but because they're, they have incredible people working for them. But the app that would change or the, the hardware that would change would just be inrecognizable different from your regular reading glasses and it, and it would have unlimited battery life, overlay of information, um, anything that you can imagine in, in like a very subtle way. Um, that would, I think it would be a great tool.

AI assessment note: “On the Vision, as it is, how it is today? I, short.”

Q Like, is this incumbent set not more dominant than ever before, and actually we're in a very different world of startup versus incumbent?

A I still don't buy it. Uh, sure. I think in retrospect, it always looks like this. 10 years ago, Apple didn't produce their own chips. Like, everything looks like that. At some point, There is, there is a market that looks penetrated, a thing that can't happen. At the same time, look, it, it, this is how it starts, dude. It's always starts like this. The things start to fall apart from the inside. Google already can't launch an AI without, without the, without the original founders coming back and having meetings with people with, with, with, with t-shirts of, of, of boobs sitting in a room somewhere in San Francisco. It's like, This is Google that you're talking about, and they shed the bed so hard. They literally just went from like the most respected company in the world to laughing stock in a matter of month. So I just don't buy it. And look, this is, this is a marathon. This is not just a sprint, but the cracks start to show in the, on the inside. The Vision Pro, an effort inside the company that was Herculean, I was told, where everybody was involved, where people had to take meetings they didn't want to know, where two teams of hundreds of people were pitted off against each other to get that thing onto the market, and now it doesn't, and now it fails. Dude, this will be the first product for Apple where they have more returns than they have on any other metric You,. You …

AI assessment note: “I still don't buy it. Uh, sure. I think in retrospect, it always looks like this.”

Q How, how old were you and did that impact you?

A Oh yeah, I think it impacted me tremendously. I was, I think I was six, um, and my brother must have been like, uh, almost three. I had a pretty, um, a pretty perfect life up to that point. Um, and, um, you know, After that, it, I think it got, it got a lot more, um, you know, complicated. Um, you know, I, my mom, um, we wanted to be with my mom. Uh, she, she has been there for us, and I, she's, she's the person I love the most, uh, in my life, and she was just a remarkably strong woman. Never talked bad about my dad, even though there were a lot of things that, that he did that would have made it easy for her, um, to discuss them with us. But she just, she just plowed on, and I think he gave literally Uh, the next, you know, 18 years of her life, uh, to make sure that, to make sure that we are, um, you know, grow up to be, to be two capable, capable boys, right?

AI assessment note: “I think it impacted me tremendously. I was, I think I was six”