The Exchanges

Q Now, I'd love to kick off today's show by hearing a little about your background and the origins of law trades. So can you give us that background?

A Yeah, absolutely. So, um, I went to undergrad in Queens, New York, and, um, after undergrad, I went to law school, and halfway through law school, I sort of started thinking about a different career path. You know, after talking to a lot of different attorneys that I met while I was in law school, reading a lot of entrepreneurial resources and listening to podcasts, I really started thinking more about entrepreneurship as opposed to being a full-time lawyer, and it was a great opportunity because halfway through law school is when we started thinking of the idea of law trades with my co-founder, Rod, and, um, the whole idea behind it was to sort of decentralize The major corporate law firms because, you know, inevitably when a entrepreneur is faced with some sort of legal issue, whether they want to start their company or, you know, just get some basic legal work done, um, there are two options before we existed were to either go to a bottom of the barrel, do it yourself legal service, which ends up costing a lot more money down the road to fix all the mistakes, or you're stuck paying almost 600 dollars an hour for some high level law firm, um, for routine legal work, and That's where we really thought there was a huge opportunity because there's so many, um, boutique law firms and solo practicing attorneys that left those big law firms, um, without the high overhead that are l…

AI assessment note: “halfway through law school is when we started thinking of the idea of law trades”

Q Then in terms of, you mentioned earlier that you'd raised the seed fat, the seed round. So jumping a few stages here and moving to the funding side of law trades, you've raised investment from our dear friends, and of course it is 500 feature weeks, so you've raised investment from 500. So how did that come about?

A Great question. So, um, as you know, as a guest on my podcast, um, I started a podcast to drive traffic to My, my website, LawTrades, and one of the guests I had on my podcast was a good friend of mine. His name is Rob Cucci, and he has a company called Pigeon, um, where they sell, you know, care packages to college students, and he actually went through 500. Um, so it just so happened that, you know, I told him about our business, and like, we've always been very revenue focused since day one, um, and, you know, told him about our numbers and whatnot, and he was like, hey, you know, you should apply to 500. The deadline's gonna Come up in literally about a week or two, and, um, you know, it was sort of out on the whim. We ended up applying, um, a couple of days before the deadline. The next day, we got an interview from Brian Wang, who just happened to be in New York City that day, and told us to come into an interview. So we have the interview. The next day later, we have another interview, um, via Skype with Elizabeth Yin. Um, she loved what we were doing, the, the, the traction we had so far, and then, uh, she invited us in, and then literally Four days after that, we picked up everything from New York and just moved to California, so it was a wild ride the last couple weeks.

AI assessment note: “he was like, hey, you know, you should apply to 500”

Q And when did you start the law trades journey, then?

A Yeah, so the idea came about halfway through, um, Being in law school. And, um, you know, so like right around my, uh, towards the end of my first, uh, first semester of my second year of law school. And, um, you know, Rod approached me and said, hey, you know, let's build this out. We could definitely make a really good platform for, um, businesses and lawyers. And the first version that we built out was absolutely horrendous. Um, we had, we had zero traction. It was simply a lawyer directory service. Um, no one was really using it. So around that time, like while I was in law school, it was sort of a blessing for me because, um, You know, I was living off student loans while I was figuring out everything, um, and, you know, it, it helped us really get the product right, so I graduated law school about, uh, four months ago, yeah, four months ago in May.

AI assessment note: “towards the end of my first, uh, first semester of my second year”

Q Then in terms of, you mentioned earlier that you'd raised the seed fat, the seed round. So jumping a few stages here and moving to the funding side of law trades, you've raised investment from our dear friends, and of course it is 500 feature weeks, so you've raised investment from 500. So how did that come about?

A Great question. So, um, as you know, as a guest on my podcast, um, I started a podcast to drive traffic to My, my website, LawTrades, and one of the guests I had on my podcast was a good friend of mine. His name is Rob Cucci, and he has a company called Pigeon, um, where they sell, you know, care packages to college students, and he actually went through 500. Um, so it just so happened that, you know, I told him about our business, and like, we've always been very revenue focused since day one, um, and, you know, told him about our numbers and whatnot, and he was like, hey, you know, you should apply to 500. The deadline's gonna Come up in literally about a week or two, and, um, you know, it was sort of out on the whim. We ended up applying, um, a couple of days before the deadline. The next day, we got an interview from Brian Wang, who just happened to be in New York City that day, and told us to come into an interview. So we have the interview. The next day later, we have another interview, um, via Skype with Elizabeth Yin. Um, she loved what we were doing, the, the, the traction we had so far, and then, uh, she invited us in, and then literally Four days after that, we picked up everything from New York and just moved to California, so it was a wild ride the last couple weeks.

AI assessment note: “one of the guests I had on my podcast was a good friend of mine”

Q Yeah, and then let's move back to Law Trades now, and obviously, absolutely fascinating company in a sector that is, is really rather archaic in its structure. So, why, why do you think there is this divergence between the advancement of tech, and then the complete lack of progression, obviously other than law trades, in the legal space?

A So there, there's, I, I think it really stems from two core issues, and it's an insanely, like you said, it's very archaic, and you're learning essentially the same cases, um, the same statutes that, uh, you know, attorneys or law school students learned, you know, 10 to 20 years ago, um, Inherently, law school does not teach you to be entrepreneurial at all. You know, it's, it's looked down upon to, you know, come out of law school and, um, be an apprentice with an attorney and get an attorney mentor and practice by yourself. You know, you're encouraged to go out and find a job and work under a partner and be an associate. So I think that, you know, most of the, most of the, most people in law school end up going that route. They end up, you know, finding a job and working under someone. And, you know, when you sort of do that for a couple of years, I think it really negates Um, becoming entrepreneurial. So, I, I, you know, hopefully, um, I think that law schools now are sort of catching on to, you know, integrating more legal technology into, um, you know, the profession, and there's certainly, like, my law school was, um, you know, they're, they're starting, like, incubators for attorneys that want to become solo practicing attorneys right out of law school, which is, you know, something that should have been done 10, 10, 15 years ago. So, um, you know, it's funny. To show y…

AI assessment note: “Law school does not teach you to be entrepreneurial at all.”

Q And then, Having kind of spent time in the legal industry in terms of studying, you had the option of pursuing that legal profession, and let's be honest, there's a lot of security and a good salary. So were you nervous to lose that by taking the leap into the startup world by being founder or co-founder of LawTrades?

A Yeah, so that's a great question. During law school, I was, you know, sort of in the top of my class. I studied with, you know, Good people that ended up getting those high-level six-figure jobs right out of law school. So it was extremely nerve-wracking to, um, sort of forgo the law school route, or the, the lawyer route, and to jump into a startup. And the reason why I did it is because, um, you know, I really looked at what the next, like, five years of my life would probably look like if I became a lawyer, and, um, it wasn't really appealing to me at all. And I'm sure you heard, uh, Peter Thiel say himself, it's like when you Join a law firm. It's something that, uh, everyone on the outside wants to get into it, but everyone on the inside of that law firm wants to leave.

AI assessment note: “it was extremely nerve-wracking to, um, sort of forgo the law school route”

Q And then, Having kind of spent time in the legal industry in terms of studying, you had the option of pursuing that legal profession, and let's be honest, there's a lot of security and a good salary. So were you nervous to lose that by taking the leap into the startup world by being founder or co-founder of LawTrades?

A Yeah, so that's a great question. During law school, I was, you know, sort of in the top of my class. I studied with, you know, Good people that ended up getting those high-level six-figure jobs right out of law school. So it was extremely nerve-wracking to, um, sort of forgo the law school route, or the, the lawyer route, and to jump into a startup. And the reason why I did it is because, um, you know, I really looked at what the next, like, five years of my life would probably look like if I became a lawyer, and, um, it wasn't really appealing to me at all. And I'm sure you heard, uh, Peter Thiel say himself, it's like when you Join a law firm. It's something that, uh, everyone on the outside wants to get into it, but everyone on the inside of that law firm wants to leave.

AI assessment note: “it was extremely nerve-wracking to, um, sort of forgo the law school route”

Q In terms of then the lawyers that you provide on your platform, Are most of them solo practitioners? Are they kind of large corporates who are looking to do extra hours?

A Right. So we have pretty strict standards for the lawyers that, uh, come onto our platform. So generally what we look for is attorneys that have big law experience, um, that, you know, are sort of tired of like the work-life balance. And inevitably a lot of people will work in big law and leave after, you know, three or four years, um, Um, to start their own firm because, you know, you have a family, um, you sort of want to not work a hundred hours a week and, and sort of, you know, operate your own way. So those are the attorneys we go after, you know, essentially a lot of small boutique firms and a lot of solo practitioners. And, you know, they have a lot of flexibility. They could, uh, essentially work from a beach and get clients on law trades, you know, and make a living. So it's great.

AI assessment note: “essentially a lot of small boutique firms and a lot of solo practitioners.”

Q article will be in the show notes and the iTunes description, just for anyone who wants to read it like I do now. But, okay, and then in terms of the fundraising process, what What was the surprising or challenging elements for you? You said obviously you'd raised the seed around before 500, and then looking at the 500 experience too, what were the surprising and challenging elements for you?

A Um, you know, the most challenging thing, I think, is just sort of, uh, finding those people that understand your vision, right? Like, so we raised the seed round. Initially, it was like a very small pre-seed round. When we had zero traction, um, you know, these were just a bunch of angels, a small micro VC that came in on the round. So, obviously, that was very challenging because we didn't have much to show for other than a vision. So, that was our big challenge, um, at first. And then, Through 500, you know, the big, the biggest challenge for 500 was literally just picking up everything in three days and leaving, you know, and just sort of putting everything on the back burner for a while and moving to California for the next four months. That was sort of, that caught me by surprise, you know, I, I wasn't expecting us to even get in at that point.

AI assessment note: “the most challenging thing, I think, is just sort of, uh, finding those people”

Q article will be in the show notes and the iTunes description, just for anyone who wants to read it like I do now. But, okay, and then in terms of the fundraising process, what What was the surprising or challenging elements for you? You said obviously you'd raised the seed around before 500, and then looking at the 500 experience too, what were the surprising and challenging elements for you?

A Um, you know, the most challenging thing, I think, is just sort of, uh, finding those people that understand your vision, right? Like, so we raised the seed round. Initially, it was like a very small pre-seed round. When we had zero traction, um, you know, these were just a bunch of angels, a small micro VC that came in on the round. So, obviously, that was very challenging because we didn't have much to show for other than a vision. So, that was our big challenge, um, at first. And then, Through 500, you know, the big, the biggest challenge for 500 was literally just picking up everything in three days and leaving, you know, and just sort of putting everything on the back burner for a while and moving to California for the next four months. That was sort of, that caught me by surprise, you know, I, I wasn't expecting us to even get in at that point.

AI assessment note: “finding those people that understand your vision”

Q In terms of then the lawyers that you provide on your platform, Are most of them solo practitioners? Are they kind of large corporates who are looking to do extra hours?

A Right. So we have pretty strict standards for the lawyers that, uh, come onto our platform. So generally what we look for is attorneys that have big law experience, um, that, you know, are sort of tired of like the work-life balance. And inevitably a lot of people will work in big law and leave after, you know, three or four years, um, Um, to start their own firm because, you know, you have a family, um, you sort of want to not work a hundred hours a week and, and sort of, you know, operate your own way. So those are the attorneys we go after, you know, essentially a lot of small boutique firms and a lot of solo practitioners. And, you know, they have a lot of flexibility. They could, uh, essentially work from a beach and get clients on law trades, you know, and make a living. So it's great.

AI assessment note: “essentially a lot of small boutique firms and a lot of solo practitioners”

Q And when did you start the law trades journey, then?

A Yeah, so the idea came about halfway through, um, Being in law school. And, um, you know, so like right around my, uh, towards the end of my first, uh, first semester of my second year of law school. And, um, you know, Rod approached me and said, hey, you know, let's build this out. We could definitely make a really good platform for, um, businesses and lawyers. And the first version that we built out was absolutely horrendous. Um, we had, we had zero traction. It was simply a lawyer directory service. Um, no one was really using it. So around that time, like while I was in law school, it was sort of a blessing for me because, um, You know, I was living off student loans while I was figuring out everything, um, and, you know, it, it helped us really get the product right, so I graduated law school about, uh, four months ago, yeah, four months ago in May.

AI assessment note: “towards the end of my first, uh, first semester of my second year”

Q And why did you choose 500 then? Obviously they're fantastic, but for you personally, why did you choose 500 out of the plethora now of accelerators that exist in the US system?

A Yeah, so, uh, 500, we really wanted to, uh, go to 500 is because they're so focused on distribution, and I think that, um, that was, you know, the one thing we really wanted to nail was, you know, how can we get more distribution? What kind of experiments could we run to even Get more customers, and I think that, um, you know, we're, obviously we're product focused, but I think it seems like YC tends to have more product focused engineers, you know, that they're looking for, and 500, you know, there's an interesting thing that I'd love for you to link up to, is there's a core question where Dave McClure really writes about the cultures that, you know, Techstars, YC, and 500 all have. And if you look at it, it's funny. It's like, 500 founders tend to be geeky hustlers. They tend to be very social, community-driven, et cetera. And like, I looked at that, and I was like, that is literally us. And, um, I, I just think the overall message and culture really resonates with what we want to do.

AI assessment note: “500 is because they're so focused on distribution”

Q Yeah, and then let's move back to Law Trades now, and obviously, absolutely fascinating company in a sector that is, is really rather archaic in its structure. So, why, why do you think there is this divergence between the advancement of tech, and then the complete lack of progression, obviously other than law trades, in the legal space?

A So there, there's, I, I think it really stems from two core issues, and it's an insanely, like you said, it's very archaic, and you're learning essentially the same cases, um, the same statutes that, uh, you know, attorneys or law school students learned, you know, 10 to 20 years ago, um, Inherently, law school does not teach you to be entrepreneurial at all. You know, it's, it's looked down upon to, you know, come out of law school and, um, be an apprentice with an attorney and get an attorney mentor and practice by yourself. You know, you're encouraged to go out and find a job and work under a partner and be an associate. So I think that, you know, most of the, most of the, most people in law school end up going that route. They end up, you know, finding a job and working under someone. And, you know, when you sort of do that for a couple of years, I think it really negates Um, becoming entrepreneurial. So, I, I, you know, hopefully, um, I think that law schools now are sort of catching on to, you know, integrating more legal technology into, um, you know, the profession, and there's certainly, like, my law school was, um, you know, they're, they're starting, like, incubators for attorneys that want to become solo practicing attorneys right out of law school, which is, you know, something that should have been done 10, 10, 15 years ago. So, um, you know, it's funny. To show y…

AI assessment note: “Inherently, law school does not teach you to be entrepreneurial at all.”

Q And what would you advise people then, thinking of maybe making the same leap, uh, and joining the world of entrepreneurship over a more stable career? Is there anything they should be considering or think about?

A Right. So, it, it's sort of what you hit on before. It's, you're gonna forego a comfortable salary, you're gonna forego nice dinners all the time, and, uh, you know, benefits, all this, this stuff that comes with having a full-time career, and inevitably, I don't think that this is for everyone. You know what I mean? I think that there, it's such a risky, it's such a risky path. There's so many ups and downs daily, so many stresses, etc. Um, so I think that you really just have to examine what you want out of your life. You know, me, I Um, regardless of whether or not law trades ends up being a powerhouse company, you know, five or six years down the road, um, I think that the path of, you know, figuring it out myself, and really working my tail off, and hustling, you know, like, that's what I really want to do. Um, so, you know, figure out what it is that you want to do, and, and just go for it, and, you know, the rest will sort of, you know, pave your own path around it.

AI assessment note: “you really just have to examine what you want out of your life.”

Q And what would you advise people then, thinking of maybe making the same leap, uh, and joining the world of entrepreneurship over a more stable career? Is there anything they should be considering or think about?

A Right. So, it, it's sort of what you hit on before. It's, you're gonna forego a comfortable salary, you're gonna forego nice dinners all the time, and, uh, you know, benefits, all this, this stuff that comes with having a full-time career, and inevitably, I don't think that this is for everyone. You know what I mean? I think that there, it's such a risky, it's such a risky path. There's so many ups and downs daily, so many stresses, etc. Um, so I think that you really just have to examine what you want out of your life. You know, me, I Um, regardless of whether or not law trades ends up being a powerhouse company, you know, five or six years down the road, um, I think that the path of, you know, figuring it out myself, and really working my tail off, and hustling, you know, like, that's what I really want to do. Um, so, you know, figure out what it is that you want to do, and, and just go for it, and, you know, the rest will sort of, you know, pave your own path around it.

AI assessment note: “you're gonna forego a comfortable salary, you're gonna forego nice dinners”

Q And then what was the interview questioning and process like? What are they looking at? Are they looking for the very much, well, I see the deep analysis of the market and just your thoughts on it, or do they really hone in on the business itself?

A Right. So, I mean, for us in particular, like, I don't know if they do this for every company. For us, what they seem to really care about that I think helped us get in was, you know, one, we had, um, about two or three people recommend us after they learned about their business. So, um, what I did was I found, you know, I literally would just, once I had one recommendation, um, I tried to get connected to other, uh, Um, I'm sure you know Steli. He was, he's a mentor at 500. He was also on my podcast. He knew what we were doing, um, and I said, hey, you know, here's, here's my numbers. Here's the business. Let me talk to you about it, and if you think if it's a good fit for 500, you know, I'd really appreciate a recommendation. So I did that with a few other people, and I think that combined with our traction, um, and, and our unit economics behind the business, uh, was enough for them to give us a shot. So I, I would really say for anyone that wants to get in, um, I, you know, focus on, Just getting some early validation and show that there is some opportunity with your business, and then also try to just get connected with people within the network, um, because if they vouch for you, I think 500 is invested in over like a thousand companies.

AI assessment note: “what they seem to really care about that I think helped us get in”

Q And then what was the interview questioning and process like? What are they looking at? Are they looking for the very much, well, I see the deep analysis of the market and just your thoughts on it, or do they really hone in on the business itself?

A Right. So, I mean, for us in particular, like, I don't know if they do this for every company. For us, what they seem to really care about that I think helped us get in was, you know, one, we had, um, about two or three people recommend us after they learned about their business. So, um, what I did was I found, you know, I literally would just, once I had one recommendation, um, I tried to get connected to other, uh, Um, I'm sure you know Steli. He was, he's a mentor at 500. He was also on my podcast. He knew what we were doing, um, and I said, hey, you know, here's, here's my numbers. Here's the business. Let me talk to you about it, and if you think if it's a good fit for 500, you know, I'd really appreciate a recommendation. So I did that with a few other people, and I think that combined with our traction, um, and, and our unit economics behind the business, uh, was enough for them to give us a shot. So I, I would really say for anyone that wants to get in, um, I, you know, focus on, Just getting some early validation and show that there is some opportunity with your business, and then also try to just get connected with people within the network, um, because if they vouch for you, I think 500 is invested in over like a thousand companies.

AI assessment note: “what they seem to really care about that I think helped us get in”

Q And how do you think then you've changed as a COO and startup employee slash co-founder in the time that you started? Have you evolved a lot as a person and as an individual? You said about the journey there personally for you.

A Yeah, absolutely. I think that there's, um, you know, when you're running a company and, and just trying to, you know, be that unicorn, be that company that really sets things off. There's so many days where, you know, you're going to face a lot of stress. You're going to face a lot of ups and downs. And a lot of times your normal friends that have comfortable jobs can't really relate to it. Right. So, um, a lot, you know, they can't, they don't really get it, you know? And, and so there, there was certainly a lot of times of like self-reflection Um, and, and just really, you know, being alone and really thinking about, um, how I was going to build things and whatnot. So, um, fortunately for us, um, and, and every other person thinking of pursuing entrepreneurship, the amount of resources that are out there to sort of guide you through the path and, and learn more about it and how to get through the hard times and how to grow your business, like all these resources are right there for us. And I really took that upon myself to, um, you know, Pay as much attention as I could and learn from other people that were sharing such valuable knowledge, whether it was in a podcast, a blog post, a book, and I was really all about it, and, um, that really helped me out a lot.

AI assessment note: “there was certainly a lot of times of like self-reflection”

Q And how do you think then you've changed as a COO and startup employee slash co-founder in the time that you started? Have you evolved a lot as a person and as an individual? You said about the journey there personally for you.

A Yeah, absolutely. I think that there's, um, you know, when you're running a company and, and just trying to, you know, be that unicorn, be that company that really sets things off. There's so many days where, you know, you're going to face a lot of stress. You're going to face a lot of ups and downs. And a lot of times your normal friends that have comfortable jobs can't really relate to it. Right. So, um, a lot, you know, they can't, they don't really get it, you know? And, and so there, there was certainly a lot of times of like self-reflection Um, and, and just really, you know, being alone and really thinking about, um, how I was going to build things and whatnot. So, um, fortunately for us, um, and, and every other person thinking of pursuing entrepreneurship, the amount of resources that are out there to sort of guide you through the path and, and learn more about it and how to get through the hard times and how to grow your business, like all these resources are right there for us. And I really took that upon myself to, um, you know, Pay as much attention as I could and learn from other people that were sharing such valuable knowledge, whether it was in a podcast, a blog post, a book, and I was really all about it, and, um, that really helped me out a lot.

AI assessment note: “there was certainly a lot of times of like self-reflection”