Dec 19, 2025 · 56m · 20product
20Product: On Running's CPO on How to Create Emotion Through Product | Why 99% of Products Fail and How to Create Cults Around Products | The Biggest Product Mistakes On Have Made & Lessons Learned with Gérald Marolf
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gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions
In this episode of 20 Product, host Harry Stebbings interviews On Running Chief Product Officer Gérald Marolf about physical product craft, emotional consumer engagement, and brand strategy. Marolf shares insights on expanding into tennis and luxury collaborations while candidly reflecting on product missteps, positioning errors, and leadership lessons.
How this conversation actually went
Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Harry holds 33.1% of the talking time here. How this is scored →
Harry as informed peer 5.4 Guest teaching 5.7 Guest disagreement 3.2 Harry pushing back 5.2
speaking balance: gold is Harry, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 19:46 Rejecting distribution-driven product strategy
Gerald explicitly rejects Harry's premise that distribution dictates strategy, asserting forcefully that brand DNA and Roger Federer's athlete mindset drive On's product expansion.
Hardest push from Harry ▶ 34:00 Challenging the Loewe luxury collaborationHarry forcefully confronts Gerald over On's luxury partnership with Loewe, using direct language to question how high-fashion lifestyle products align with a performance brand.
Biggest teaching moment ▶ 6:53 Physical vs digital product risk dynamicsGerald educates Harry on the fundamental risk disparity between physical and digital products, explaining that physical footwear design cannot be patched or iteratively changed once shipped.
Harry holds his own ▶ 38:22 Citing Hugo Barra's product frameworkHarry demonstrates strong hardware strategy expertise by citing Hugo Barra's framework on price leadership versus feature differentiation to analyze footwear manufacturing choices.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
| Chapter | Topic | Harry as informed peer | Guest teaching | Guest disagreement | Harry pushing back | Why |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Defining Good Product and Creating Consumer Emotion | 3 | 5 | 1 | 2 | Gerald explains how his fascination with product design began with perfume, highlighting how smell creates emotional attachment beyond utility. Harry asks probing questions to draw out how On applies emotional engineering to footwear. | |
| Physical vs. Digital Products and Engineering Subtle Details | 2 | 6 | 2 | 3 | Gerald educates Harry on the structural differences between software and hardware products, noting that digital UX offers rapid iteration whereas physical items cannot be altered post-launch. | |
| Simplicity in Design and Balancing Consumer Segments | 5 | 5 | 3 | 4 | Gerald pushes back on the common assumption that simple design is always superior, arguing that complexity fosters word-of-mouth and expertise. Harry points out the real-world tension of non-runners wearing technical shoes in London cafes. | |
| Customer Feedback vs. Brand Vision and Hybrid Missteps | 4 | 6 | 3 | 3 | Gerald outlines why younger footwear brands without historical archives must create rather than look back, and reflects on past mistakes where listening to customer desires for hybrid sports-lifestyle items diluted product intent. | |
| Tennis Strategy, Vegan Leather, and Sustainability Trade-offs | 6 | 5 | 4 | 7 | Harry directly challenges Gerald, asking whether rejecting hybrid products contradicts the dominant athleisure trend. Gerald maintains that uncompromising product intent trumps generalist consumer appeasement. | |
| Innovation Leadership and Roger Federer's Role in Brand DNA | 7 | 6 | 5 | 8 | Harry bluntly challenges On's tennis strategy based on market size and total addressable market considerations. Gerald rejects the premise that distribution drives strategy, explaining that Roger Federer defines On's broader brand DNA. | |
| Managing Brand Longevity, Shipping Speed, and Product Messaging | 6 | 6 | 3 | 6 | Harry asks whether On moved too slowly relative to competitors like Hoka in targeting long-distance runners. Gerald acknowledges the criticism, admitting that On over-engineered its slower-marathon product positioning. | |
| Hero Products, Brand Personality, and Competitor Insights | 5 | 6 | 2 | 4 | Gerald argues that modern retail no longer requires hero products and commends Asics for prioritizing pure product performance over marketing-friendly product naming conventions. | |
| Performance vs. Marketing and the Loewe Partnership | 7 | 6 | 5 | 9 | Harry aggressively pushes back on On's collaboration with high-end luxury house Loewe, calling it brand confusion for a performance company. Gerald defends the move as aspirational brand building and total addressable market expansion. | |
| Consumer Friction, Material Sourcing, and Knockoff Impacts | 8 | 5 | 3 | 5 | Harry cites Hugo Barra's product framework on price versus feature leadership to explore physical product positioning. Gerald explains how knockoffs degrade brand gravitas and undermine genuine technical innovation. | |
| Subcultures, Hyperlocal Trends, and Dream Collaborations | 6 | 6 | 3 | 5 | Harry probes whether On risks becoming pigeonholed into specific elite customer demographics. Gerald highlights how subcultures in Asian cities like Seoul drive brand adaptation and subculture relevance. | |
| Commercial Pragmatism and Accessory Development | 6 | 6 | 4 | 6 | In a quickfire round, Gerald offers blunt critiques of Adidas moving too fast at the expense of brand personality, and reflects on his own CPO tendency to over-involve himself in specialist domains. |
Statements from this episode (25)
Marolf: Perfume liquid costs less to produce than its packaging
“What is nicer about perfume is that it even costs less to make than the actual packaging, which for us is slightly different”
Marolf: Great products trigger slight consumer discomfort
“Every great product, you should probably trigger somewhat of that slight discomfort of challenging yourself of, is it the right thing for me?”
Marolf: Small design details drive more consumer impact than complex engineering
“And so it's the smaller parts that have a bigger impact than the hours and days and weeks we spent with a sports science team engineering a foam so that you can do your five K and not have your back hurting in the evening.”
Marolf: Simple product design requires more storytelling and reduces word-of-mouth
“Because simple will result in more storytelling needs and less word of mouth.”
Marolf: Running culture baseline prevents On from compromising product quality
“So running and coming from running and having run culture as a base is just a great starting point because we simply can't fuck up. You cannot give people a product that they cannot do their half marathon in.”
Marolf: Salomon is struggling as the outdoor footwear trend fades
“Salomon has been having a bit of harder time because the outdoor trend is not there.”
Marolf: On Listened Too Much to Demand for Hybrid Footwear
“We probably listened to customers when it comes to the space that exists between sports and lifestyle too much.”
Marolf: Footwear Products Balancing Function and Style Equally Fail
“Not sure that really still exists or has ever existed in the way that that's been described and that it makes sense to have a product that does function and style equally well.”
Marolf: On would have explored non-vegan tennis shoe materials earlier
“We probably would have explored different materials earlier, whereas I think we took a very conscious decision to make that a vegan product for all the sustainability reasons behind it, where then durability is sort of the other side of the equation. And we pr…”
Marolf: Striving to be first in product innovation attracts top engineering talent
“The ambition to be first helps to attract great talent. It helps to bring in engineers. It helps to bring in innovators. And it gives you clarity in your roadmap to what you're doing.”
Marolf: On Running aims to be the world's most premium sportswear brand
“A sportswear brand that, that strives to be the most premium sportswear brand on the planet. And the word premium is in there and he's certainly part of the reasoning why we look at it that way.”
Marolf: On Running delayed marathon shoes by seeking engineering perfection
“We tried really hard to be probably overly precise in the product that we do, and that means that engineering is slightly slower, and you should leave a bit more to the consumer or the runner in that case to make up their minds. We're striving for perfection, …”
Marolf: Positioning a marathon shoe for 'slower runners' was a product mistake
“This year I definitely would say it's that slow marathon running product that rightfully so probably the community didn't get, because if you have that ambition, why would you want to wear a shoe for the slower runner? Even if you are that there's a lot of hea…”
Marolf: On Running's LightSpray produces shoes in three minutes without human labor
“Other than that, I think Light Sprays is just, her latest innovation is, is just a very interesting piece of an innovation platform that we're building out. It can be seen as controversial because you make a shoe in three minutes and you don't need any humans,…”
Marolf: Modern consumer brands no longer require a hero product
“Answering your question, probably no, not anymore. I think that used to be the case, but if I think about how people shop these days, who they listen to and also where their share of wallet goes, I'm not sure.”
Marolf: Alo Yoga should drop 'yoga' from its brand name
“And yes, they probably should get rid of it.”
Marolf: Asics focuses more on authentic product than competing sportswear brands
“I think Asics is talking much more true product itself than many other brands that we have in our space.”
Marolf: Slip-on convenience drives the success of major footwear brands
“If you think about big footwear brands these days, and they come in all shapes and forms, Birkenstock, Crocs, Vans, whatever have you, a lot of it is you don't need to tie the shoes.”
Marolf: Knockoffs harm brands when copying technology rather than aesthetics
“Imitation sucks on innovation. Imitation is great flattery if it's purely sort of Mocking and aesthetic or whatever, what Skechers is doing to some extent is like, it's not great, but then also, but when it comes to innovation, I think it really sucks.”
Marolf: Counterfeits undermine quiet luxury by forcing brands to over-design
“I think it's bad because it takes piece of aspiration away from the brand and it will Make them do stuff on the product that is not necessarily nice. And you see that with LV or with other brands as well, right? Where you distinct a bit more just to be a bit m…”
Marolf: New Balance succeeded through hyperlocal subculture strategies over global campaigns
“What they, I think, did incredibly well is that they understood better than others that in that space, it's not necessarily a global market anymore. They were much more hyperlocal, even though it was big, but it felt very local to the right communities at the …”
Marolf: La Sportiva is the most underappreciated footwear brand
“La Sportiva. Quality product. I would say outstanding. Not too much fucks given. Great looking shoes.”
Marolf: Adidas is overrated and focuses too much on short-term waves
“Adidas. They're going too fast. I feel that they're doing a great job in, in, in running, and I massively appreciate what, like, Patrick, Bjorn, and the team have built. I would just love that they would, with all the heritage they have in their backpacks, and…”