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Aug 5, 2016 · 20m · 20vc

20VC: Turning Down Apple & Getting Funded By Chamath @ Social Capital with Dhananja Jayalath, Co-Founder & CEO @ Athos

Dhananja Jayalath · 13m spoken Harry Stebbings · 6m spoken
0:00 / 0:00

gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions

In this episode of The 20 Minute VC, host Harry Stebbings interviews Dhananja Jayalath (DJ), co-founder and CEO of Athos, exploring how his team turned down job offers at Apple after securing seed funding from Chamath Palihapitiya, overcame complex hardware manufacturing challenges, and built a trusted wearable fitness brand.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Harry holds 31.6% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

Harry as informed peer 3.6 Guest teaching 3.4 Guest disagreement 2.6 Harry pushing back 3.2
05100:0010:0020:002:00–7:00 · Harry as informed peer 2/10 Athos Origin Story and Seed Funding from Chamath Harry asks a broad opening question about the origin story and turning down Apple. DJ details the underlying science of electromyography versus basic accelerometers and explains how they miniaturized $16,000 medical equipment into washable clothing.7:00–10:30 · Harry as informed peer 5/10 Hardware Manufacturing Challenges and Development Velocity Harry brings up investor questions and quotes hardware VC Ben Einstein regarding the dangers of rapid hardware iteration. DJ politely pushes back on the quote, arguing that speed is a crucial advantage when managed with proper metrics.10:30–12:35 · Harry as informed peer 4/10 Customer Feedback, Simplicity, and Hardware-Software Integration Harry cites Marc Andreessen's quote that software distinguishes hardware winners. DJ rejects this framing, arguing that consumers buy holistic experiences rather than hardware or software in isolation.12:35–15:48 · Harry as informed peer 5/10 Hardware Business Models and Brand Loyalty Harry prompts DJ on hardware monetization models and asks how to build a brand given millennials' lack of consumer loyalty. DJ disagrees with the premise, stating that disloyalty only exists for undifferentiated products.15:48–19:48 · Harry as informed peer 2/10 Venture Fundraising Evolution and Scaling Vision The conversation moves to venture funding and a light quick-fire round. DJ modestly declines to benchmark his fundraising against others because Athos is his first company.2:00–7:00 · Guest teaching 4/10 Athos Origin Story and Seed Funding from Chamath Harry asks a broad opening question about the origin story and turning down Apple. DJ details the underlying science of electromyography versus basic accelerometers and explains how they miniaturized $16,000 medical equipment into washable clothing.7:00–10:30 · Guest teaching 3/10 Hardware Manufacturing Challenges and Development Velocity Harry brings up investor questions and quotes hardware VC Ben Einstein regarding the dangers of rapid hardware iteration. DJ politely pushes back on the quote, arguing that speed is a crucial advantage when managed with proper metrics.10:30–12:35 · Guest teaching 4/10 Customer Feedback, Simplicity, and Hardware-Software Integration Harry cites Marc Andreessen's quote that software distinguishes hardware winners. DJ rejects this framing, arguing that consumers buy holistic experiences rather than hardware or software in isolation.12:35–15:48 · Guest teaching 4/10 Hardware Business Models and Brand Loyalty Harry prompts DJ on hardware monetization models and asks how to build a brand given millennials' lack of consumer loyalty. DJ disagrees with the premise, stating that disloyalty only exists for undifferentiated products.15:48–19:48 · Guest teaching 2/10 Venture Fundraising Evolution and Scaling Vision The conversation moves to venture funding and a light quick-fire round. DJ modestly declines to benchmark his fundraising against others because Athos is his first company.2:00–7:00 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Athos Origin Story and Seed Funding from Chamath Harry asks a broad opening question about the origin story and turning down Apple. DJ details the underlying science of electromyography versus basic accelerometers and explains how they miniaturized $16,000 medical equipment into washable clothing.7:00–10:30 · Guest disagreement 3/10 Hardware Manufacturing Challenges and Development Velocity Harry brings up investor questions and quotes hardware VC Ben Einstein regarding the dangers of rapid hardware iteration. DJ politely pushes back on the quote, arguing that speed is a crucial advantage when managed with proper metrics.10:30–12:35 · Guest disagreement 3/10 Customer Feedback, Simplicity, and Hardware-Software Integration Harry cites Marc Andreessen's quote that software distinguishes hardware winners. DJ rejects this framing, arguing that consumers buy holistic experiences rather than hardware or software in isolation.12:35–15:48 · Guest disagreement 4/10 Hardware Business Models and Brand Loyalty Harry prompts DJ on hardware monetization models and asks how to build a brand given millennials' lack of consumer loyalty. DJ disagrees with the premise, stating that disloyalty only exists for undifferentiated products.15:48–19:48 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Venture Fundraising Evolution and Scaling Vision The conversation moves to venture funding and a light quick-fire round. DJ modestly declines to benchmark his fundraising against others because Athos is his first company.2:00–7:00 · Harry pushing back 1/10 Athos Origin Story and Seed Funding from Chamath Harry asks a broad opening question about the origin story and turning down Apple. DJ details the underlying science of electromyography versus basic accelerometers and explains how they miniaturized $16,000 medical equipment into washable clothing.7:00–10:30 · Harry pushing back 5/10 Hardware Manufacturing Challenges and Development Velocity Harry brings up investor questions and quotes hardware VC Ben Einstein regarding the dangers of rapid hardware iteration. DJ politely pushes back on the quote, arguing that speed is a crucial advantage when managed with proper metrics.10:30–12:35 · Harry pushing back 4/10 Customer Feedback, Simplicity, and Hardware-Software Integration Harry cites Marc Andreessen's quote that software distinguishes hardware winners. DJ rejects this framing, arguing that consumers buy holistic experiences rather than hardware or software in isolation.12:35–15:48 · Harry pushing back 4/10 Hardware Business Models and Brand Loyalty Harry prompts DJ on hardware monetization models and asks how to build a brand given millennials' lack of consumer loyalty. DJ disagrees with the premise, stating that disloyalty only exists for undifferentiated products.15:48–19:48 · Harry pushing back 2/10 Venture Fundraising Evolution and Scaling Vision The conversation moves to venture funding and a light quick-fire round. DJ modestly declines to benchmark his fundraising against others because Athos is his first company.

speaking balance: gold is Harry, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · Harry 79.2% · guest 20.8%0:00 · Harry 79.2% · guest 20.8%3:00 · Harry 0% · guest 100%3:00 · Harry 0% · guest 100%6:00 · Harry 21.2% · guest 78.8%6:00 · Harry 21.2% · guest 78.8%9:00 · Harry 35.3% · guest 64.7%9:00 · Harry 35.3% · guest 64.7%12:00 · Harry 27.4% · guest 72.6%12:00 · Harry 27.4% · guest 72.6%15:00 · Harry 22% · guest 78%15:00 · Harry 22% · guest 78%18:00 · Harry 38.7% · guest 61.3%18:00 · Harry 38.7% · guest 61.3%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 15:01 Rejecting premise on millennial brand loyalty

DJ directly challenges Harry's assertion about millennial consumer disloyalty, arguing that consumers switch only when products are undifferentiated and untrustworthy.

 Hardest push from Harry ▶ 8:54 Testing speed vs caution in hardware

Harry actively counters DJ's emphasis on speed by invoking hardware investor Ben Einstein's warning that high velocity cripples hardware startups.

 Biggest teaching moment ▶ 3:15 Medical EMG technology adaptation

DJ educates Harry on why standard accelerometers fail to provide actionable training data, detailing how Athos adapted 60-year-old $16,000 medical EMG technology into daily gym apparel.

 Harry holds his own ▶ 8:54 Quoting Ben Einstein on hardware velocity risks

Harry demonstrates relevant venture expertise by citing Bolt founder Ben Einstein to challenge DJ on the operational risks of rapid hardware iteration.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicHarry as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementHarry pushing backWhy
Athos Origin Story and Seed Funding from Chamath 2411 Harry asks a broad opening question about the origin story and turning down Apple. DJ details the underlying science of electromyography versus basic accelerometers and explains how they miniaturized $16,000 medical equipment into washable clothing.
Hardware Manufacturing Challenges and Development Velocity 5335 Harry brings up investor questions and quotes hardware VC Ben Einstein regarding the dangers of rapid hardware iteration. DJ politely pushes back on the quote, arguing that speed is a crucial advantage when managed with proper metrics.
Customer Feedback, Simplicity, and Hardware-Software Integration 4434 Harry cites Marc Andreessen's quote that software distinguishes hardware winners. DJ rejects this framing, arguing that consumers buy holistic experiences rather than hardware or software in isolation.
Hardware Business Models and Brand Loyalty 5444 Harry prompts DJ on hardware monetization models and asks how to build a brand given millennials' lack of consumer loyalty. DJ disagrees with the premise, stating that disloyalty only exists for undifferentiated products.
Venture Fundraising Evolution and Scaling Vision 2222 The conversation moves to venture funding and a light quick-fire round. DJ modestly declines to benchmark his fundraising against others because Athos is his first company.

Statements from this episode (8)

Insight
Jayalath: New tech adoption relies on integrating into existing routines
“It's very hard to get people to adopt new technology if they have to build a new habit around it. But if you integrate into existing routine, they're much more likely to use it.”
Dhananja Jayalath Aug 5, 2016 ▶ 4:31
Disclosure
Athos secured seed investment from Chamath Palihapitiya within three hours of meeting
“We got here. I think we had a seed deal about three hours afterwards.”
Dhananja Jayalath Aug 5, 2016 ▶ 6:22
Disclosure
Athos founders rejected signed job offers at Apple to launch startup
“Chris and I had already signed job offers to join. I was going to join Apple. Chris was going to be joining analog devices. Idea was like, let's just like make some money and work on this on the side so that, you know, we can make a better prototype and figure…”
Dhananja Jayalath Aug 5, 2016 ▶ 6:30
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Jayalath: No manufacturing process existed for smart clothing before Athos
“No one has ever integrated technology Into clothing the way we've done it. There was no manufacturing process when we started doing it.”
Dhananja Jayalath Aug 5, 2016 ▶ 7:35
Disclosure
Jayalath: Athos manufactures smart clothing with Sri Lanka's MAS
“We work with one of the best manufacturers in the world. They call it MAS based in Sri Lanka, and they do work for Nike, Lululemon.”
Dhananja Jayalath Aug 5, 2016 ▶ 7:46
Opinion
Jayalath rejects Marc Andreessen's thesis that software distinguishes hardware winners
“I kind of don't think about it in terms of that. I think people buy experiences and people want to be part of experiences.”
Dhananja Jayalath Aug 5, 2016 ▶ 11:58
Disclosure
Athos Charges for Apparel and Hardware While Offering Software for Free
“We're really just focused on like, right now it's like, let's sell, let's go through a very traditional model where the clothing and the hardware you purchase, the physical product and the software is completely free.”
Dhananja Jayalath Aug 5, 2016 ▶ 13:38
Prediction Partly held up
Jayalath: Athos will focus on high school athletes market
“We're really focused on capturing and really enabling high school athletes to perform at their best. How do we do that Is going to evolve over time as we expand the market of all these high school athletes that really could use the best trainers, training them…”
Dhananja Jayalath Aug 5, 2016 ▶ 19:10
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