Dec 11, 2024 · 1h 17m · news
Torsten Reil, Helsing Founder: Raising $828M to Build the Defence Champion of Europe | E1237 · 20VC with Harry Stebbings
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Torsten Reil, the co-founder of defense tech pioneer Helsing, discusses the critical need for European strategic sovereignty and the rapid shift toward software-first autonomous warfare. He also shares powerful entrepreneurial insights on scaling startups, talent density, and the necessity of urgent defense procurement reform.
How this conversation actually went
Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Harry holds 17.5% of the talking time here. How this is scored →
Harry as informed peer 4.3 Guest teaching 4.6 Guest disagreement 3.1 Harry pushing back 4.1
speaking balance: gold is Harry, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 1:03:20 Torsten's fiery rejection of public commentary on European decline
Torsten forcefully rejects host and public commentary about European regulation and taxes, stating that complaining on LinkedIn and X is 'worth nothing' and driving him crazy.
Hardest push from Harry ▶ 1:12:20 Harry's direct refusal of the 'TikTok is crack cocaine' framingHarry explicitly refuses Torsten's claim that TikTok is societal crack cocaine, using his personal feed focused on gym workouts and protein recipes to counter the premise.
Biggest teaching moment ▶ 51:32 Torsten educating VCs on innovation grants vs programs of recordTorsten breaks down the massive operational gap between winning a $500k innovation grant and securing an official program of record, demonstrating how VCs misunderstand defense scale.
Harry holds his own ▶ 16:15 Harry citing Trae Stephens on Anduril's co-founder skill matrixHarry demonstrates deep knowledge of defense tech founding dynamics by accurately citing Trae Stephens' skill matrix for Anduril's executive team to challenge Torsten's co-founder thesis.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
| Chapter | Topic | Harry as informed peer | Guest teaching | Guest disagreement | Harry pushing back | Why |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Episode Hook and Trailer Hook Segment | 2 | 3 | 1 | 1 | The host opens with warm introductory questions regarding Torsten's prior company Natural Motion and its pivot from university spin-out tech licensing to mobile game creation. Torsten outlines the lesson of focus and high-risk adaptability without any friction from the host. | |
| Hiring Exceptional Talent and Maintaining Talent Density | 4 | 4 | 3 | 4 | Harry challenges Torsten on whether talent density can actually scale without compromise beyond 350 people, and offers his own interview framework looking for 'spiky' extreme performers. Torsten politely rejects Harry's interview approach as staged and artificial, explaining that he prefers natural conversation. | |
| Radical Performance Management and the Absence of One-on-Ones | 3 | 5 | 4 | 5 | Harry uses direct binary propositions, asking if 1-on-1s are necessary and stating that performance improvement plans never work. Torsten rejects both assumptions, explaining why he abolished 1-on-1s for senior executives and citing real cases where PIPs successfully turned employees around. | |
| Defining 'Helsing Speed' and the 100M Euro Series A | 3 | 3 | 2 | 4 | Harry gently pushes on whether founders kid themselves when applying blitzscaling logic, and questions the massive jump from an 8.5M euro seed to a 100M euro Series A. Torsten clarifies Daniel Ek's rapid conviction and how early funding allowed Helsing to target major defense programs directly. | |
| The Necessity of Co-Founders in Defense Tech | 6 | 4 | 3 | 6 | Harry displays strong industry knowledge by citing Trae Stephens' breakdown of Anduril's co-founder skill matrix to test Torsten's multi-founder thesis. Harry then directly pushes back when Torsten claims the West didn't understand the 2014 Crimea annexation, arguing leaders understood but failed to act. | |
| Building an 'Ethics Muscle' and Geopolitical Red Lines | 5 | 4 | 4 | 6 | Harry drills Torsten on ethical ambiguity, bringing up changing global sentiment surrounding Israel and Gaza to challenge Helsing's ethical sales boundaries. Torsten refuses to hide behind static export laws while rejecting the idea that navigating moral grey zones is merely a cop-out. | |
| The Software-First Approach to Hardware and Strike Drones | 4 | 4 | 2 | 4 | Harry questions Helsing's leap into manufacturing hardware with its HX-2 strike drones, noting that hardware operates under completely different operational rules than software. Torsten counters that software simulation allows fast iteration cycles before committing to physical drone hardware. | |
| Reforming Defense Procurement and the 'Tesla Moment' | 5 | 4 | 3 | 5 | Harry pushes on procurement incentives, questioning if officials are incentivized to protect legacy prime relationships rather than innovate. When Torsten proposes reserving 20% of defense spending for new tech entrants, Harry quickly points out that such a policy currently would almost exclusively benefit Helsing. | |
| Adversarial Autonomous Capabilities and Democratic Defense Dilemmas | 3 | 6 | 2 | 2 | Torsten details technical specifications of Iranian Shahed and Russian Lancet drones, educating the host on how adversaries rapidly advance software capabilities. Harry asks clarifying questions on whether Western governments underestimate these asymmetric threat vectors. | |
| The Future of Warfare: Autonomous Swarms and Asymmetric Economics | 6 | 5 | 2 | 3 | Harry cites Matt Grimm's operational breakdown regarding asymmetric defense economics ($1M exquisite drones vs $50k missiles) to steer the conversation on air warfare economics. Torsten expands on saturation tactics, explaining how low-cost autonomous swarms render traditional artillery and tanks obsolete. | |
| Defense Spending, Procurement Reform, and the Role of Primes | 5 | 5 | 2 | 3 | Harry again cites Matt Grimm regarding legacy primes taking far too long to build technology, asking Torsten how he would restructure UK defense procurement. Torsten contrasts legacy primes waiting eight years for government grant funding with Helsing pre-financing its own internal R&D for 8-month delivery cycles. | |
| The VC Dilemma in Defense and the Challenge of Building a Prime | 6 | 7 | 4 | 5 | Harry queries whether defense VC investment is overhyped and whether new startups can achieve exits. Torsten turns the question back on Harry by asking who will buy these startups, proceeding to educate the host on how early $500k innovation grants create false product-market fit expectations compared to true programs of record. | |
| Naivety, Founder Resilience, and the GTA IV 'Oh Shit' Moment | 2 | 3 | 1 | 1 | Harry asks Torsten for a specific founder war story regarding founder naivety and unexpected crises. Torsten recount receiving an ultimatum call from Rockstar Games during GTA IV engine integration that required a 10x performance boost, praising his engineering team for camping out to save the company. | |
| Europe's Ambition Deficit, Sovereign Tech, and the Myth of Work-Life Balance | 5 | 6 | 7 | 6 | Harry quotes Mark/Shaq on Europe's ambition deficit and voices macroeconomic concerns over European state dependency and over-regulation. Torsten forcefully attacks public commentary and social media complaining as completely worthless, telling people to build companies instead, prompting playful studio banter from Harry. | |
| Sovereign Tech Fields and Imminent Geopolitical Threats | 5 | 4 | 3 | 4 | Harry quotes Matt Clifford to ask which tech sectors Europe must build for national sovereignty. When Torsten confesses he dislikes thinking about war and suffering, Harry humorously highlights the irony of a defense founder admitting he dislikes thinking about conflict. | |
| Personal Reflections, Quick-Fire Round, and the TikTok Dilemma | 5 | 6 | 7 | 7 | In the quick-fire round, Torsten aggressively rejects standard startup cliches like 'servant leadership' and 'work smart not hard', and labels TikTok as addictive crack cocaine. Harry directly pushes back on the TikTok stance, arguing his own feed is packed with positive fitness and health content. |
Statements from this episode (37)
Helsing's 2021 pitch deck predicted invasions of Ukraine and Taiwan
“When we started Helsing in March, 2021, we actually put one of our slides that we thought there were going to be two galvanizing events. One of them was going to be an invasion of Ukraine by Russia, the other one an invasion of Taiwan by China.”
Defense primes risk a Tesla-style disruption if they ignore software
“The thing that we have to avoid is the Tesla moment for the defense sector. If we collectively, including the primes, don't understand that and don't adapt, the same thing is going to happen to defense, As happened to the car industry.”
Torsten Reil's NaturalMotion licensed animation software for GTA V and Harry Potter
“We ended up using it in, and licensing it for visual effects in big Hollywood movies, like Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, Spider-Man, then for big video games like GTA IV, GTA V Max Payne and many others”
Torsten Reil: Four exceptional engineers outperform eight good ones for less money
“You can achieve a lot in particular around software with three to four exceptional people. And so we'd rather have a team of four exceptional people than eight good people. It makes everything easier. It's also cheaper, by the way, even though you pay above ma…”
Torsten Reil: Needing weekly 1-on-1s with senior leaders signals operational problems
“The people I work with are usually senior and don't need that much guidance. If I need a one-to-one with them every week, I think something's probably gonna, is probably going wrong.”
Torsten Reil: Eliminating 1-on-1 meetings had zero negative impact on performance
“I used to do them religiously, by the way, I just stopped doing them. It hasn't had a negative impact.”
Torsten Reil: Performance improvement plans actually work and turn employees around
“Well, I, I've seen actually quite a lot of people turn around, including at my previous company as well, in, on a performance management plan. So it's not a foregone conclusion.”
Torsten Reil: Constant hiring pressure is necessary to manage low performers out
“You need to basically always have pressure on the pipeline of good people coming in, in order to be able to manage other people out, and so that you end up with a pool of people that are amazing.”
Helsing raised a €100M Series A four months after its seed round
“So the seed was eight and a half million euros, but then we were lucky to have Daniel Ek and Prima Materia invest a hundred million euros about four months later or so.”
Torsten Reil: Heavy capital lets defense startups bypass grants for major contracts
“And the second thing that allowed us to do is, is to not go for innovation you know, projects in defense for incubators and, you know, little grants here and there, but because we were quite well funded, we could go for programs of record. So the official larg…”
Torsten Reil: Complex defense tech startups cannot be built by solo founders
“I would say Helsing is a company that you can only co-found. You need to have multiple founders.”
Torsten Reil: Poland increased defense spending from 2.1% to 4.7% of GDP
“Look at Poland, Poland has gone from, I think, 2.1% or so to 4.7 within just a few years.”
Torsten Reil: Foreign allies will eventually lack capability to protect Europe
“Over time there just won't be, I think the capability even of partners and as it looks to also not the willingness to do so.”
Torsten Reil: Defense tech companies must build ethical standards beyond export law
“But I think if you want to have people really engaged with these kinds of technologies and capabilities in a company, you need to go further than that. You need to build a view that goes beyond just what is quite static export law.”
Torsten Reil: Most Western drone companies build low-volume, boutique hardware
“Most drone companies right now build small numbers of quite exquisite drones. They're quite expensive. You know, it's sometimes a bit of a boutique business where people really care about the hardware and the carbon and everything else.”
Torsten Reil: Governments spend under 1% of equipment budgets on startups
“I think it's less than one percent.”
Torsten Reil: Russia is manufacturing Shahed drones licensed from Iran
“Iran is producing a large number of drones already. They've been you know, using and working on the Shahad, for example, for a long time. They've licensed that design to Russia. Russia is now manufacturing it itself.”
Torsten Reil: Deterrence requires software speed and tens of thousands of drones
“You can counter them but you can't counter them with the current systems that we have. You can't just have exquisite, exquisite systems like tanks or artillery guns that are not particularly well connected that take a while to take a shot. You need to work bas…”
Torsten Reil: Ukraine and Russia each produce 1.5M FPV drones annually
“I believe Ukraine is, is building one and a half million FPV drones, the small first person view drones, drones a year. I think Russia is building roughly the same.”
Torsten Reil: Single operators will control autonomous drone swarms by 2025
“At the moment you have one operator operating one drone. That's going to happen It's going to happen quite quickly that that's going to change, and you'll be able, as a single operator, to control multiple drones, and that trend, I think, we'll see playing out…”
Torsten Reil: Cheap strike drones make expensive tanks and artillery obsolete
“If you just think about the economics of it, you still have a really strong asymmetry, and so it'll become harder and harder unless you find a way to really counteract these systems, which is hard, to send expensive tanks and artillery systems into battle when…”
Torsten Reil: Deploying human soldiers against mass AI drones will become impossible
“You'll, it'll be impossible, and I think ethically extremely problematic, to send humans into a battlefield that is essentially Facing large numbers of autonomous intelligence systems on the other side.”
Torsten Reil: Traditional defense primes spend less than 5% on internal R&D
“In general, they're not incentivized to Spend a lot of their own money on R&D. I think it's probably less than five percent or so.”
Torsten Reil: Extremely few new defense prime contractors will emerge
“A very small number. An extremely small number.”
Torsten Reil: Long-tail defense startup investments will lose value
“I think for some of the more fragmented tail, I think they're maybe not to zero, but I think they're going, going to go down.”
Torsten Reil: Best defense investments are scaled firms with record programs
“I think it is, so, I mean, I'm biased, but I think it is around those companies that have got to scale, that have programs of record, and that are basically active in a conflict.”
Torsten Reil: VC defense startups cannot all become primes due to talent
“So, so all of these companies would be competing for a very small pool of people, and I, it's just impossible to have turned them all into primes. It will just, it just not gonna happen.”
Torsten Reil: Product-market fit is only one-eighth of building a defense prime
“But I had to learn that, that is just a very small part of building a prime. It's like one eighth, maybe, or something. It's product market fit. Then you have to do all the rest.”
Torsten Reil: Europe does not lack early-stage venture capital
“I don't think that there is a lack of capital in Europe. Certainly not seed, series A, symptoms even series B.”
Torsten Reil: Founder ambition matters more than regulatory or tax policy
“I actually think none of this stuff really matters that much. I think what really matters is founder quality and founder ambition. So I think for a country to be successful, they should attract the most aggressive founders. And everything else is a lot less im…”
Torsten Reil: Europe can establish tech sovereignty within five to ten years
“I'm not sure whether we'll be able to create those companies kind of in the next two or three years to a point where they provide sufficient sovereignty, but I'm very sure we can do it over the next five to 10 years.”
Torsten Reil: A Russian threat to NATO's eastern flank is extremely plausible
“I think the threat is extremely plausible in the next few years.”
Torsten Reil: A China-Taiwan conflict will occur much sooner than 10 years
“I, again, I think it's plausible that there will be a conflict. When? It's hard to tell. I don't think it's 10 years away if it happens. It's probably quite a lot sooner than that.”
Torsten Reil: Founders who work smart and hard always win
“Because you need to do both, clearly. You know, you're always out-competed by someone who works smart and hard, if you're a work smart, not hard person.”
Torsten Reil: Exceptional teams work best without process, stand-ups, or deadline forecasts
“I used to think that, that you needed to make sure that there was always a degree of process when teams work together on something and including something new. I have now learned that it's possible with exceptional people to let's, let's just let them get on w…”
Torsten Reil: If running ByteDance, he would immediately shut down TikTok
“Probably ByteDance, and I would shut down TikTok immediately.”
Torsten Reil: Helsing would have prioritized EW and GPS independence earlier
“We would have focused all of our efforts on specific systems to deal with the problems in hand, which were, which are now the ones that I talked about earlier. It's electronic warfare resistance, GPS independence you know, being resilient to comms jamming.”