Jan 7, 2025 · 3h 1m · tbpn
The END of Ski Season? (E26)
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In this episode of Technology Brothers, John Coogan and Jordy Hays conduct an extensive business teardown of the ski industry and Vail Resorts alongside analyses of artificial intelligence, venture finance, and wellness culture. Blending analytical breakdowns with humor, the hosts explore corporate strategy, emerging technologies, and high-performance lifestyle philosophies.
How this conversation actually went
Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. The hosts hold 56.1% of the talking time here. How this is scored →
The hosts as informed peer 6.3 Guest teaching 3.9 Guest disagreement 2.0 The hosts pushing back 2.2
speaking balance: gold is the hosts, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 1:22:50 Jordy confronts a VC firm over stealth incubation
Jordy aggressively challenges the notion that incubators have aligned incentives, recounting how he directly accused a VC partner of lying and cloning his portfolio company.
Hardest push from the hosts ▶ 2:03:00 Jordy rejects B2B brand building for consumer foundersJordy firmly rejects the premise that CPG founders should build B2B thought-leadership followings on X, arguing that consumer products require external influencer scale instead.
Biggest teaching moment ▶ 15:47 Jordy explains the zero-tolerance mechanical reality of ski liftsJordy educates John on the brutal engineering and failure tolerances of mountain gondolas based on his family's multi-decade operational background at Mammoth Mountain.
The host holds their own ▶ 2:30:05 John's masterclass on capital structures and venture debtJohn demonstrates authoritative financial fluency by systematically categorizing when to deploy venture equity, PP&E asset loans, and working capital debt lines.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
| Chapter | Topic | The hosts as informed peer | Guest teaching | Guest disagreement | The hosts pushing back | Why |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Vail Resorts Mystery Quiz and Ski Lift Line Culture | 7 | 2 | 1 | 2 | John presents a detailed mystery company quiz outlining Vail Resorts' founding, financial figures, Apollo PE ownership, and restructuring history. Jordy quickly guesses Vail and riffs collaboratively on ski lift line culture from his recent Alps trip. | |
| The Evolution of Vail Resorts and the Epic Pass Model | 7 | 3 | 2 | 2 | John cites FinTwit analysis and financial data breaking down Vail's revenue mix shift toward season passes between 2008 and 2022. Jordy contributes firsthand color on single-mountain passes versus modern Epic Pass economics. | |
| Operational Logistics of Modern Ski Resorts and Resort Culture | 6 | 5 | 2 | 3 | Jordy educates John on the intense mechanical and safety logistics of lift maintenance based on family history at Mammoth Mountain. John provides operational context from Bloomberg reporting on Northeast lift replacement capex. | |
| Park City Ski Patrol Strike and Labor Economics | 7 | 4 | 3 | 3 | Jordy and John debate the Park City ski patrol wage dispute, with Jordy citing union demands and precedent risks. John pulls 10-K figures showing labor costs represent 730 million dollars of Vail's cost structure. | |
| Deep Dive: How Vail Acquired Park City Mountain Resort | 8 | 2 | 1 | 1 | John leads an exhaustive narrative breakdown of how Vail acquired Park City Mountain Resort from Powder Corp via a lease renewal error. Jordy listens and reacts as John walks through the financial and legal mechanics. | |
| Climate Change Pressures and Global Ski Resort Expansion | 7 | 3 | 2 | 2 | John references a Ross School of Business study on freezing-day projections and global ski terrain diversification. Jordy provides commentary on the geographic portfolio hedging necessary for seasonal weather shocks. | |
| Ski Industry Financialization and Career Lessons in Private Equity | 6 | 4 | 2 | 2 | John highlights the 10x stock and pass revenue growth from business model retooling while advising listeners to enter PE rather than ski patrol. Jordy elaborates on remote work arbitrage for ski enthusiasts. | |
| Merch Showcase: Ridge Wallets, ModRetro Chromatic, and Superpower | 6 | 3 | 2 | 3 | John and Jordy showcase community merch, highlighting Ridge Wallet's direct-response performance ad model and unboxing Palmer Luckey's ModRetro Chromatic. Jordy pitches an investment thesis that GameStop should acquire ModRetro. | |
| Listener Q&A: Defense Tech, Grooming Secrets, and Peter Thiel PR | 7 | 3 | 1 | 2 | John maps out defense tech taxonomy and predicts VC capital shifting into energy and data center buildouts, while analyzing Peter Thiel's long-form media blitz. Jordy shares grooming routines and non-shampoo practices. | |
| Startup Incubators, VC Conflicts of Interest, and Deal Drama | 6 | 6 | 4 | 3 | Jordy challenges the premise that incubator funds are inherently harmless to founders, recounting a firsthand situation where he suspected a VC firm was secretly incubating a direct competitor. John contextualizes Anduril's Founders Fund origin. | |
| Podcast PR Circuit Strategy and Luxury Watch Recommendations | 6 | 4 | 2 | 3 | Jordy and John detail how authors leverage PR agencies and podcast appearances to drive book sales, with John sharing his own experience ascending to Bloomberg Odd Lots. Both quickly debate luxury women's watches, championing the Cartier Tank Louis. | |
| Athlete Branding and MMA Media Strategies with Bo Nickal | 5 | 7 | 2 | 1 | Jordy breaks down MMA brand economics and athlete media management, contrasting Bo Nickal's lifestyle vlogging with Colby Covington's heel persona. John synthesizes by framing UFC marketing as authentic WWE-style narrative construction. | |
| Andrew McCallum's Master Plan, Doge Art, and Supercars | 6 | 3 | 2 | 2 | John reads an elaborate DM from Varda engineer Andrew McCallum detailing his modern art plan, and both debate whether a Ferrari F40 or Lamborghini Miura fits his brand. | |
| Holiday Work Ethic, Crypto Reflexivity, and Meme Coin Chaos | 6 | 4 | 3 | 3 | John and Jordy discuss holiday hustle culture and the reflexive feedback loops between crypto asset prices and political influence, followed by an account of a rogue meme coin created under their brand name. | |
| Safari Porsche Auction, Gen Z Learning, and CPG Personal Brands | 6 | 5 | 3 | 3 | After spotlighting a Safari 911 auction, John and Jordy discuss online education versus universities. Jordy pushes back against consumer brand founders building B2B thought leadership profiles on X instead of focusing on product and influencer partnerships. | |
| Celebrity Private Equity, Credit Card Lounges, and Equestrian Culture | 6 | 5 | 3 | 2 | Jordy and John examine Kim Kardashian stepping back from SKKY Partners, critiquing celebrity PE funds. Jordy dismisses airport lounge credit card point-hacking while John proposes a corporate Ramp lounge. | |
| DeepSeek V3 and Open-Weights AI Disruption | 7 | 3 | 2 | 2 | John recaps Andrej Karpathy's analysis of DeepSeek-V3's open-weights model trained with extreme compute efficiency. Jordy and John weigh architectural distillation against model exfiltration risks. | |
| Physical Fitness Culture and the Bryan Johnson Benchmark | 5 | 3 | 1 | 1 | John and Jordy riff on fitness culture, proposing a simple New Year's algorithm centered on heavy bench press numbers to surpass Bryan Johnson. | |
| The Collapse of Bench Accounting and Venture Debt Dynamics | 8 | 3 | 2 | 2 | John and Jordy discuss the shutdown of Bench Accounting. John provides a masterclass on capital structure matching, explaining where venture debt belongs versus equity and asset-backed financing. | |
| Bay Area Food Testing and the Microplastics Crisis | 6 | 5 | 2 | 2 | John reviews Nat Friedman's viral study testing 300 Bay Area foods for phthalates and PFAS. Jordy highlights Light Labs' role and explains why regulatory compliance differs drastically from true safety. | |
| Lamborghini Huracán Sterrato and Ski Resort Nomenclature | 6 | 4 | 3 | 3 | Jordy promotes a Lamborghini Huracan Sterrato and debates resort naming conventions. John shares an anecdote about a ski instructor scolding guests over renaming Squaw Valley to Palisades. | |
| Humanoid Robotics Marketing: 1X, Lil B, and Streamer Distribution | 6 | 5 | 2 | 2 | John and Jordy analyze 1X's grassroots marketing strategy using Lil B and streamer Kai Cenat. Jordy contrasts Twitch tipping dynamics with traditional direct-response sponsorships. | |
| TI-83 Programming Nostalgia and Early Viral Video Hosting | 7 | 4 | 1 | 2 | John and Jordy reminisce about programming BASIC games on TI-83 calculators. John shares an extended personal story about hosting viral Counter-Strike frag videos on his father's server before YouTube existed. | |
| Promoted Post: The Red Bull Micro Grant Initiative | 5 | 3 | 1 | 2 | Jordy promotes the Red Bull four-dollar micro-grant fund. Both discuss Scarlett Johansson's missed opportunity to license her voice directly to OpenAI before closing out on 2025 motivation. |
Statements from this episode (32)
Ski patrol strike in January 2025 caused massive Vail lift lines
“In January of 2025, they got in hot water after a ski patrol strike led to massive lines at lifts during the peak season.”
Vail Resorts' net income dropped from $370M in 2022 to $245M
“Twenty-twenty-two, they had three hundred and seventy million of net income. In twenty-twenty-three, they went down to two 85. And then in twenty-twenty-four, they had two 45, 2:46.”
Vail Resorts' season pass revenue mix rose from 26% to 62%
“So the Lyft, Lyft-related revenue mix, in 2008, it was 26% passes. In twenty-twenty-two, it was 62% passes.”
Jordy Hays claims to have repeatedly defeated editor unionization attempts
“We've dealt with our own our editors trying to unionize over and over but we are always able to win.”
Vail spends $730M on labor against $1.4B in lift revenue
“Vail, as a whole, across all 42 mountains, the lift revenue was 1.4 billion, and the labor and labor-related benefits was seven hundred and thirty million. And so it's by far their biggest cost twice their GNA, twice their other.”
Powder Corp missed Park City's 20-year lease renewal by two days
“PCMR, PCMR's lease required written renewal every 20 years, a deadline that no one at Powder was assigned to monitor. This is crazy. While Powder sent its letter two days late, things seemed fine, paying their fee and investing seven million in upgrades.”
Ski resort operations are a labor of love, not cash cows
“Even at this level of scale and owning the entire industry, I look at it and I say this is a business, this is a labor of love, right? This is not the business that you get into because you just care about Generating cash.”
Vail's $1,000 Epic Pass is an exceptional consumer value trade
“Vail Resorts is basically saying for a thousand dollars a year, you can get access to 40 of the most beautiful mountains on earth. And get to me that, that value exchange is like such a great trade for the average consumer that it's has to be frustrating runni…”
Park City's freezing days are projected to drop 25% by 2050
“The current number of days below freezing at Park City in Utah Is a 194 per year. And by 20 50 ish, they're projecting that that'll go down to about a 150. So about a 25% decrease.”
Vail's pass revenue surged tenfold from $78 million to $800 million
“And the past revenue, which you'll see here climbed from. Seventy eight million in 2008 to basically eight hundred million in in 20, 22. So a 10 X growth.”
Ridge generates hundreds of millions in revenue with zero outside capital
“Yeah, they haven't raised a dollar, and they've just grown that business, and grown it, and now it's doing I think hundreds of millions of dollars, right, Jordy?”
GameStop must acquire Palmer Luckey's ModRetro for $1 billion
“This is the lifeline for GameStop. And so basically I think that GameStop basically has to buy Mod Retro for a billion dollars. At least if I was an investor, that's my investment thesis.”
Defense VCs will pivot to energy and data centers in 2025
“The next category that I think will be really, like, maybe retconned into The defense and industrial tech will be energy and data center build out. And because I think they're capital intensive, high dilution, similar skill sets. So I think a lot of the VCs th…”
Justin Mares was advised to build TruMed quietly to avoid YC copycats
“I do think I heard when Justin Mayers was initially pitching TruMed, some of the feedback he got was like, this is a good idea, but you gotta be really quiet about this for the next like year or two until you get this thing going, because this is an idea that …”
VCs prefer backing generational founders over incubating copycat competitors
“The reason that it's not so bad that funds have this incubation strategy is like, they would so much rather just back the generational team. And so if you are building a generational company and you have this world-class generational team, You can rest assured…”
No podcast is too small for founders or investors to join
“If you are running a company or an investment firm, there's almost no podcast that's too small. Cause it used to be that if you were running a business and you got invited to speak at some random conference in Nebraska, like you're working oil and gas and it's…”
UFC only promotes upcoming fights, forcing fighters to self-market
“Some fighters have been overly reliant on the UFC to promote them.
And so their only incentive is to promote the next fight.
So if you don't have a fight on
The schedule, you're not fighting that week.
You're, you pretty much have to promote yourself.”
Andreessen Horowitz donated the most to crypto PACs in 2024
“Andreessen Horowitz donated by far the most to crypto packs when I looked at the data earlier this year or the last year.”
Bitcoin functions as a religion with a native asset, not an investment
“Whenever I've underestimated Bitcoin, it's from thinking of it as an investment asset versus a religion. So the difference between, like, the oil industry and the Bitcoin industry is people in the oil industry are like, this is a resource that we fundamentally…”
Posting on X does not drive sales for low-ticket CPG brands
“If you're building an enterprise or B to B product, and you can get in front of a thousand business owners, that can have a dramatic effect on your business, but if you're building a CPG business with selling a 20 dollar product, like, Lucy, Loose, like X does…”
Physical consumer brands eventually require a personal brand partner to scale
“At some point you're going to need some sort of partnership or relationship with someone that does have a personal brand. And so that doesn't need to be you. That doesn't need to be the CEO.”
Kim Kardashian is no longer managing private equity firm SKKY Partners
“Breaking Kim Kardashian is no longer managing sky partners, the private equity firm she co-founded with former Carlisle partner, Jay Simmons.”
Kim Kardashian should have launched a consumer VC fund instead
“Kim should have launched a consumer VC and YOLO checks alongside tier one funds.”
DeepSeek leapfrogged other AI labs by training on OpenAI's models
“That's not, didn't cover the fact that it seems like people have been figuring out that they just kind of like were able to leverage OpenAI's models and then like leapfrog using it.”
Outsourced accounting startup Bench shut down after raising $113 million
“Drew Fallon says, accounting firm Bench has gone out of business after 13 years. They raised a hundred and thirteen million dollars. They did a five million dollar seed in 2014, then a thirteen million dollar series A, sixteen million series B, eighteen millio…”
Bench co-founder sold subsequent accounting startup to Mercury
“He goes and starts like some other accounting related business with all the experience that he had. Then has a nice exit to Mercury, and now he works on there. Started and had a successful exit. Now he runs their, like, accounting product to Mercury.”
Legal regulatory limits for food contaminants are far above healthy levels
“The big takeaway from this is that legal does not mean safe. So the government has Actual regulations around the levels of the amount of shit that can be in food, and that legal level is usually way above what is considered healthy, right?”
1X is executing the right strategy for humanoid robotics
“Honestly, you gotta, if I'm gonna go along a humanoid robot company, they actually are doing all the right Things.”
Humanoid robots are the most inherently viral products to build today
“And so for one X, I mean, a humanoid robot is like the most inherently viral product you could possibly be building right now.”
Jordy Hays is partnering with a robotics startup to film armed robots
“I'm, we're, I'm working with a portfolio company that I won't name yet, but we're going to be able to go. We're, they're going to give it a gun. And we're going to be able to go make some content.”
OpenAI's 'Sky' voice did not actually sound like Scarlett Johansson
“When I heard the her voice, I think it was a lot of people just pattern matching off the tweet, because I didn't actually think, like, oh, this, I'm talking to Scarlett Johansson. It did not seem that close.”
LLM outputs represent an average blend, not direct publisher replication
“Most of these AI things, they feel very, like, the average of everything. Every answer feels like the average of everything, and then the New York Times gets upset and says like, oh, it's exactly like us. It's like, well, it's kind of like the average of you a…”