Nov 22, 2017 · 59m · mixergy
#1524 When does a startup founder need a COO?
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gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions
Mixergy host Andrew Warner interviews renowned business coach and COO Alliance founder Cameron Herold to examine when growing companies need a Chief Operating Officer. Herold breaks down the complementary psychology between visionary CEOs and operational integrators while detailing proven methods for recruiting, vetting, and onboarding high-caliber operational leadership.
How this conversation actually went
Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Andrew holds 42.7% of the talking time here. How this is scored →
Andrew as informed peer 2.9 Guest teaching 4.6 Guest disagreement 2.0 Andrew pushing back 2.2
speaking balance: gold is Andrew, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 4:50 Herold calls 90-day evaluation conventional wisdom bullshit
Herold directly dismisses the common executive advice that founders need 90 days to evaluate a hire, calling it bullshit and insisting proper vetting happens entirely before day one.
Hardest push from Andrew ▶ 32:54 Warner challenges three-year forecasting against startup realityWarner challenges Herold's insistence on rigid two-to-three-year roadmaps by referencing Jason Calacanis's repeated strategic pivots, asking how startups can realistically make such forecasts.
Biggest teaching moment ▶ 46:28 Herold clarifies ripple effects mean internal friction not growthWhen Warner interprets 'ripple effects' as immediate positive organizational improvements, Herold steps in to explain that new COOs generate internal friction, jealousy, and misalignment that founders must actively soothe.
Andrew holds their own ▶ 9:33 Warner challenges experience-only hiring via the book 'Who'Warner demonstrates deep familiarity with executive hiring literature to question whether Herold's strict requirement for past experience prematurely eliminates high-potential, hungry generalists.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
| Chapter | Topic | Andrew as informed peer | Guest teaching | Guest disagreement | Andrew pushing back | Why |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| The Yin-and-Yang Relationship Between Founder and COO | 3 | 6 | 3 | 1 | Warner opens the interview candidly seeking guidance on his own managerial shortcomings. Herold immediately frames the COO role as an entrepreneurial yin-and-yang, bluntly rejecting the conventional 90-day onboarding trial period as flawed hiring. | |
| Scorecards, Topgrading, and Hiring Proven Operators | 5 | 6 | 4 | 4 | Warner cites methodology from the hiring book 'Who' to challenge whether strictly screening for past execution filters out ambitious go-getters. Herold forcefully rejects generalists, asserting business is a full-contact sport requiring proven specialists. | |
| Strategic COOs Versus Operations Managers | 4 | 6 | 2 | 3 | Warner asks if hiring an operations manager to document systems instead of a strategic COO is an entrepreneurial cop-out. Herold explains title creep and emphasizes that true COOs must possess the stature and experience to challenge executive strategy. | |
| Sponsor Spotlight: Toptal's Problem-Solving Developers | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | Warner delivers a mid-roll advertisement for Toptal, connecting freelance talent to high-level problem solving via a personal anecdote about fixing a laptop. | |
| Vivid Vision, Deep Reference Checks, and Selection | 3 | 6 | 2 | 2 | Herold lays out his intense candidate screening process, detailing group interviews and exhaustive reference checking. Warner tracks along, connecting the concepts to formal threat-of-reference-check frameworks. | |
| Sourcing A-Players and Crafting Golden Handcuffs | 3 | 6 | 3 | 3 | Herold discusses poaching top performers and placing golden handcuffs on key operators. Warner questions how a company can hire executives years before their intended full-time scope arrives. | |
| Startup Stages, Second-in-Command Archetypes, and Founder Psychology | 5 | 6 | 3 | 5 | Warner challenges Herold's multi-year planning thesis by contrasting it with high-variance startup pivoting, citing Jason Calacanis. Herold clarifies that his framework is designed for post-product-market-fit scale-ups rather than early startups. | |
| Sponsor Spotlight: HostGator's Scalable Web Hosting | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | Warner engages in brief casual banter regarding afternoon wine before delivering an ad read for HostGator web hosting. | |
| The COO Alliance and Managing Onboarding Ripples | 3 | 6 | 2 | 2 | Herold outlines onboarding executive hires and warns founders to watch for organizational ripple effects. When Warner assumes ripples mean immediate upside, Herold corrects him to focus on mitigating internal politics and jealousy. | |
| Executive Wellness, Personal Rituals, and Masterminds | 3 | 4 | 1 | 2 | The dialogue shifts to personal routines, morning rituals, microdosing, and vulnerable mastermind communities like Baby Bathwater. Warner explores Herold's transition from traditional operations to holistic executive wellness. |
Statements from this episode (9)
Herold: Kolbe index profiles show CEOs are 'Quick Starts', COOs 'Fact Finders'
“In fact, we use some profiles at the COO Alliance where we profile all the CEOs and the COOs that are members and everyone's Colby profile that is the entrepreneur or high quick starts. All the COOs are very high fact finders and follow throughs. They're just …”
Herold: Hiring for attitude over experience caps company growth at 10 percent
“The days of hiring people for attitude and training for skill, the days of hiring the kind of master all trades or jack of all trades, master of none that gets you seven to 10% growth, but it doesn't get you the hyper growth.”
Herold: Hired Kimbal Musk and Peter Rive as painting franchisees in 1993
“I hired Kimball Musk to be a franchisee for mine. I hired his cousin. No, Elon's brother. Brother. Okay. And then I also hired his cousin, Peter Reeve, who built solar city. They both were franchisees for me in 1993.”
Herold: Zip2 seed investors deemed Elon Musk 'unbackable' and preferred Kimbal
“And two years later, I was a reference in Elon and their very first round of funding for zip too. They had one employee and I had to explain why to back Kimble must because no one wanted to back Elon cause he was unbackable. He dropped out of aeronautical engi…”
Herold: 40-person entrepreneurial startups suffer from C-suite title creep
“Nowadays we've had title creep where like to have a CMO or a CRO or a CT, like God, those were titles reserved for the fortune 100 or the fortune 500. We've had a lot of title creep down into these entrepreneurial companies where you've got 40 employees and yo…”
Herold: I told Uber's founder at Burning Man that Uber was stupid
“In fact, I told the founder of Uber camp years ago when we were burning man together, that it was a stupid idea because I just didn't understand Uber.”
Herold: True entrepreneurs are born with necessary traits, not made
“Entrepreneurs have to be born with the entrepreneurial traits, and then they can be nurtured. But I don't think you can take a person and make them an entrepreneur. You're either entrepreneurial or you're not. And some of that is the craziness. It is the ADD, …”
Herold charges $80,000 annually for just three monthly executive coaching hours
“I'm now 80,000 a year just to coach somebody, and that's three hours a month. You get to a point where I can't take that many more clients, and I can't really charge that much more, and it doesn't scale.”
Herold: CEOs must monitor organizational ripple effects of a new COO
“Your job in the first 90 days is to watch the ripples As they're getting up to speed, you have to watch for all the ripple effects that they cause. Most people miss that. They're so worried about getting the answer, the CEO up to speed that they miss all the t…”