Aug 13, 2014 · 1h 8m · mixergy
#1050 How a former lawyer built a multi-million dollar company that teaches social skills – with Jordan Harbinger
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gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions
In this Mixergy interview, host Andrew Warner speaks with Jordan Harbinger, co-founder of The Art of Charm, exploring his journey from a socially anxious Wall Street attorney to the head of a multi-million-dollar social dynamics training company and top-ranked podcast. Jordan breaks down high-leverage networking principles, nonverbal communication, high-ticket coaching funnels, and the operational grit required to build a lasting brand.
How this conversation actually went
Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Andrew holds 36.9% of the talking time here. How this is scored →
Andrew as informed peer 4.7 Guest teaching 4.5 Guest disagreement 1.7 Andrew pushing back 3.2
speaking balance: gold is Andrew, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 26:30 Pushing back on pickup industry gimmicks
Jordan firmly rejects the premise that he endorsed or made money from gimmicky pickup products, calling peacocking ridiculous and criticizing marketers who do not actually help clients.
Hardest push from Andrew ▶ 25:20 Confronting past branding via Wayback MachineAndrew refuses to let Jordan gloss over his early history, reading verbatim cringe-worthy taglines and product giveaways from archived 2007 web pages.
Biggest teaching moment ▶ 16:08 The social rule of interrupting to introduce oneselfJordan educates Andrew on nonverbal presence and social etiquette, explaining why someone entering a room should unapologetically interrupt a conversation to introduce themselves.
Andrew holds their own ▶ 43:08 Live traffic analytics teardownAndrew demonstrates his investigative preparation by querying live analytics software to surprise Jordan with specific referral sources like Lewis Howes.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
| Chapter | Topic | Andrew as informed peer | Guest teaching | Guest disagreement | Andrew pushing back | Why |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Informal Beginnings, Pocketed Cheese, and Multi-Seven-Figure Revenue | 4 | 2 | 2 | 5 | Andrew playfully interrogates Jordan about pocketing cheese at a prior gathering and presses him hard to disclose specific revenue and net worth figures. Jordan parries by citing multi-seven-figure revenue while dodging exact cash numbers. | |
| Law School Epiphany and Peer-Driven Collaborative Study | 3 | 4 | 1 | 3 | Andrew questions Jordan's motivation for entering law school given his entrepreneurial drive. Jordan explains his initial career confusion and how he leveraged collaborative study groups with analytical peers to survive law school. | |
| The Wall Street Law Firm Epiphany on Network Value | 4 | 5 | 1 | 2 | Jordan recounts discovering that the top rainmaker at his Wall Street law firm succeeded entirely through networking rather than billable desk hours. Andrew synthesizes the core takeaway regarding knowledge commoditization versus relationship value. | |
| Fundamentals of Nonverbal Communication and Assertive Introductions | 4 | 6 | 2 | 4 | Andrew uses a specific awkward guest from a recent hangout to drill Jordan on actionable social techniques. Jordan educates the audience on social assertiveness, explaining why interrupting for an introduction is socially permissible and expected. | |
| Personal Awkwardness and Deconstructing AJ's Social Intuition | 3 | 5 | 1 | 2 | Jordan shares self-deprecating anecdotes illustrating his past social blindness and how observing his co-founder AJ's intuitive reading of women at a bar led directly to their podcast partnership. | |
| From Ann Arbor Nightlife to Podcasting and Industry Skepticism | 6 | 4 | 3 | 5 | Andrew pulls up archived Wayback Machine pages to scrutinize Jordan's early pickup artist branding and affiliate products. Jordan clarifies his distaste for industry gimmicks like peacocking and explains the early days of podcasting in 2005. | |
| Early Monetization, Exposure Therapy, and In-Person Training | 4 | 6 | 1 | 3 | Jordan explains how they transitioned from free informal advice to paid coaching through exposure therapy drills guided by consultations with psychologists. Andrew probes on how coaches can teach nuanced conversation across different cultural contexts. | |
| Professionalizing Operations and Systematizing Website Live Chat | 5 | 4 | 2 | 3 | Andrew notices a live chat pop-up active on Jordan's website during the call and investigates the operational backend. Jordan reveals he personally worked the chat for over a year before outsourcing and training dedicated staff. | |
| Grassroots Audience Growth and High-Stakes Podcast Strategy | 6 | 5 | 2 | 4 | Andrew uses web traffic analytics tools to challenge Jordan on where his audience comes from, pointing out traffic referrals like Lewis Howes. Jordan explains his grassroots blogging outreach and his high-level relationships with Apple editorial managers. | |
| Comprehensive Product Tiers and Immersive Residential Bootcamps | 5 | 5 | 1 | 3 | Andrew breaks down the specific pricing and sales funnel for The Art of Charm, questioning Jordan about digital products versus live residential programs costing up to eight thousand dollars. | |
| Intellectual Property Theft, Legal Turmoil, and Mental Resilience | 4 | 6 | 1 | 3 | Andrew brings up research notes regarding a painful legal dispute where former team members stole intellectual property. Jordan recounts the extreme stress that caused his hair to fall out before he learned to detach from business drama. | |
| Navigating Podcast Rankings and Industry Saturation | 6 | 5 | 2 | 4 | Andrew pulls up live iTunes podcast rankings in the health and self-help categories, sparking a debate on whether authors and marketers are overly saturating the podcast medium without possessing broadcast skills. | |
| Mid-Roll Sponsorship: Leadpages and Conversion Psychology | 7 | 1 | 1 | 1 | Andrew performs a sponsor read for Leadpages and AndrewsWelcomeGate.com, detailing email conversion mechanics. Jordan makes brief humorous remarks encouraging Andrew to innovate. | |
| Debunking the Passive Income Myth Through Daily Operational Hustle | 5 | 5 | 3 | 2 | Both host and guest aggressively debunk the concept of 'passive income' and the four-hour workweek, pointing out that sustainable online business requires continuous daily operational hustle. | |
| Leading Entrepreneurial Delegations to North Korea | 5 | 5 | 2 | 4 | Andrew presses Jordan on his trips leading delegations into North Korea and raises safety and legal concerns. The interview winds down with a candid reflection on why Andrew initially rejected Jordan for an interview years prior. |
Statements from this episode (17)
Harbinger: The Art of Charm generates multiple seven figures in revenue
“I'm going to pull a Ramit Sethi and not tell you the exact number, but I will say multi, multi, multi, seven figures.”
Harbinger: Technical knowledge is a commodity compared to high-value networks
“Knowledge is essentially a commodity, even at the highest levels. I mean, some of it's esoteric, some of it's harder to gain than others, and some of it's gained through experience. But at the end of the day, there's always going to be a larger pool of those p…”
Harbinger: First impressions happen upon entering a room, not introducing oneself
“Your first impressions were made when you walked into the room, not when you decided to introduce yourself.”
Harbinger: Unwritten social rules allow interrupting someone mid-sentence to introduce yourself
“We have this sort of weird societal unwritten rule that introductions kind of always trump anything else that's going on in a conversation, because If you don't introduce yourself, it's weird, and if you don't know who you're talking to, it's also weird. So yo…”
Harbinger: 99% of the pickup artist industry is cynical internet marketing
“Once you meet those guys in real life and you find out that 99% of what they do is internet marketing and they don't really care about helping people, it pisses you off.”
Harbinger: The Art of Charm is booked out four to six months
“Now it's eight guys every single week, seven or eight guys every single week, For four months, six months in advance, depending on the season, were booked out completely.”
Harbinger: The Art of Charm has 800k downloads, ranks among top iTunes shows
“Yeah, we, right now, I think we've got like, 800,000. We're one of the largest shows in iTunes.”
Harbinger built his initial audience by pitching blogs nightly for four months
“I stayed up till five a.m., probably for four straight months, during a summer, and I emailed every single blog I could find. And probably low double digits or low or high double digits, low three digit number of blogs were like, sure. And they linked to us an…”
Harbinger asks Apple which guests secure iTunes homepage placement
“I call Apple and I go, hey, who would you like to see me interview? I've got these ideas and who can you, who would you put on the front page of iTunes? And they give me a list out of that list. And then I call those people's PR or have my, I have my people ca…”
Harbinger: Art of Charm Live Bootcamps Cost $4,000 to $8,000
“They range from four to 8000. And we're raising prices this summer, but yeah.”
Harbinger: The Art of Charm invested $30,000 into stolen digital IP
“Oh, the guys stole it for, and it was worth that much. We had invested 30 grand.”
Harbinger: Bad Podcasting Harms Authors Rather Than Helping Their Book Sales
“If you're an author and you start a podcast and you freaking suck at it, like a lot of them do, all the editing in the world is not going to make you more interesting, unfortunately, and there's a lot of authors that are not that interesting other than when th…”
Warner: Most people in 2014 do not know how to access podcasts
“Go through the streets of San Francisco, ask someone to show you how they install a podcast on their phone. Most people don't freaking understand what it is. Yes, there are programs like Stitcher that make it more accessible. Ask someone about Stitcher, and th…”
Harbinger: Tim Ferriss works at least 40 hours a week
“The guy who wrote the four hour work week works at least 40 hours a week, I would say.”
Harbinger: Those claiming abundant passive income are coasting, broke, or lying
“People who tell you they're doing that are either not making that much money, they've made money, then they're costing on it, or they're full of crap, and usually it's some mix of those three things.”