Mar 28, 2024 · 30m · green-blueprint
Inside Apple’s failed car program
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Host Stephen Lacey interviews Bloomberg chief correspondent Mark Gurman to examine the decade-long journey and eventual cancellation of Apple's secretive electric vehicle initiative, Project Titan. The discussion reveals how executive indecision, unachievable Level 5 autonomy targets, and automotive margin pressures doomed the project, prompting a strategic pivot toward generative AI.
How this conversation actually went
Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. The hosts hold 0.8% of the talking time here. How this is scored →
The hosts as informed peer 3.6 Guest teaching 4.8 Guest disagreement 0.5 The hosts pushing back 0.5
speaking balance: gold is the hosts, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 9:05 Gurman dismissing Musk fitting Apple culture
Gurman bluntly rejects any scenario where Elon Musk could have coexisted with Apple management, highlighting an irreconcilable cultural clash.
Hardest push from the hosts ▶ 20:05 Lacey challenging Apple's ten-year stubbornness on Level 5Lacey directly questions the rationale of Apple clinging to full autonomy for a decade after industry evidence showed Level 5 was unrealistic.
Biggest teaching moment ▶ 13:30 Gurman detailing bizarre Apple Car design conceptsGurman delivers deep investigative reporting on outlandish design prototypes like exterior microphones replacing physical roll-down windows.
The host holds their own ▶ 22:22 Lacey detailing automotive production hell and marginsLacey demonstrates domain knowledge regarding automotive manufacturing complexities and contrasts them with consumer tech hardware.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
| Chapter | Topic | The hosts as informed peer | Guest teaching | Guest disagreement | The hosts pushing back | Why |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| The 2014 Vision and the Mother of All AI Projects | 2 | 3 | 0 | 0 | Narrative intro featuring edited commentary and archival clips. Host Stephen Lacey sets the scene around Apple's initial ambitions and ultimate pivot away from Level 5 autonomy. | |
| Show Introduction: The Ten-Year Saga of Project Titan | 3 | 5 | 0 | 0 | Lacey asks about Steve Jobs' early interest in cars and the GM exploration. Gurman provides detailed reporting on Apple exploring acquiring Tesla and talks with global automakers. | |
| What If Apple Had Acquired Tesla in 2014? | 3 | 4 | 1 | 0 | Lacey asks about the counterfactual of Apple buying Tesla in 2014. Gurman breaks down how Apple's M&A playbook operates and why Musk would not have lasted culturally. | |
| Fundamental Disagreements Over Autonomy, Design, and Target Audience | 3 | 6 | 1 | 0 | Lacey asks about design and autonomy disagreements. Gurman educates the audience on bizarre internal concepts like microbus seating, fake window audio, and command center driving. | |
| Leadership Turmoil: From Doug Field to Kevin Lynch | 4 | 6 | 0 | 0 | Lacey quotes internal Apple managers describing the project as cringeworthy. Gurman provides insider context on leadership changes from Doug Field to Kevin Lynch. | |
| The Pitfalls of Chasing Level 5 Autonomy and Automotive Margins | 6 | 5 | 1 | 3 | Lacey pushes on why Apple clung to Level 5 autonomy when industry struggles were obvious. Gurman responds by highlighting gross margin realities and the fear of a me-too car. | |
| Execution Failures, Indecision, and What Could Have Been | 5 | 5 | 1 | 1 | Lacey highlights how difficult car logistics are compared to consumer electronics. Gurman explains how top AI engineering talent was salvaged and shifted to Vision Pro and Generative AI. | |
| Retrospective Assessment, Lessons Learned, and Interview Conclusion | 3 | 4 | 0 | 0 | Lacey jokes about using Vision Pro to simulate being in an Apple car and asks for final takeaways. Gurman contrasts the slow exploration cycle of Titan with Vision Pro and Apple Watch. |
Statements from this episode (21)
Gurman: Apple Began Hiring Auto and Autonomous AI Talent Around 2015–2016
“The first time that I caught wind that Apple was developing an electric vehicle was probably about eight or nine years ago when I had found out they have started to hire people from the automotive industry and from the AI industry related to autonomous driving…”
Cook: Apple sees autonomous systems as the mother of all AI projects
“There is a major disruption looming there. What we've talked about focusing on publicly is we're focusing on autonomous systems, and, ah, clearly one purpose of autonomous systems is self-driving cars. There are others, ah, and we sort of see it as the mother …”
Gurman: Apple delayed car to 2028 and downgraded to Level 2-plus
“And so the decision was made to delay their planned release date a couple years to the twenty-twenty-eight, twenty-twenty-nine time frame, so about five, six years from now, and re-architect the car around a level two, two-plus design.”
Gurman: Apple canceled car project to reallocate resources to generative AI
“And this was clear admission of failure and admission of a need to disperse some of the resources from that program to other projects at the company, such as the work going on in generative artificial intelligence.”
Gurman: Apple considered acquiring Tesla and met with Musk before passing
“Initially, the first part of the car project was examining what it would take to acquire Tesla, integrate Tesla, and take Tesla to a new level under Apple ownership. And so they spent a lot of time exploring the possibility of acquiring Tesla. Apple's head of …”
Gurman: Apple held partnership talks with Mercedes, BMW, McLaren, and Canoo
“Flew throughout the world to meet with different car manufacturers. They held discussions with Mercedes, Volkswagen, BMW, McLaren, self-driving company called Canoe. If you can name the company, they thought about working with them in some fashion.”
Gurman: Elon Musk would have quickly left if Apple acquired Tesla
“I quite frankly don't think Elon Musk would have lasted long at Apple, right, with Tesla. I think Elon Musk would have wanted control. I think Elon Musk would have wanted to run, you know, probably the whole company, obviously a very ambitious guy, and certain…”
Gurman: Apple would have absorbed Tesla rather than run it as subsidiary
“Buying Tesla would have been the basis of their own car project. I don't think it would have operated necessarily as its own subsidiary. I think it would have been the beginnings of, you know, an Apple vehicle.”
Gurman: Apple Car project faced early rift over autonomy levels
“The big disagreement that, that Apple was facing from the get-go of the project was the level of autonomy to work through, right? Would it be something close to no autonomy? Would it be something like level two, like you see in a Tesla? Would it be level five …”
Gurman: Apple car core design resembled the Volkswagen ID Buzz
“And I think that the very core of the car looked something like the Volkswagen ID Buzz,
Which is their, you know, new generation concept reimagining of the 19 fifties, 19 sixties micro bus, right?”
Gurman: Apple explored non-opening car windows with simulated exterior audio
“They had ideas about not having windows that can open.
And so instead of that, they put microphones outside the car with a, you know, a high tech spatial audio system inside the car that could present
The user with the feeling that they have open windows.”
Gurman: Apple tested bidirectional car design with no front or rear windows
“There were other strange ideas, such as not having windows on the front or the back of the car, and the idea being that the front and back look identical, so the car could drive in either direction, and it's always driving forward.”
Gurman: Apple considered game controllers and remote operators for driving fallbacks
“There was talk of having a game controller-like interface in the car to be able to drive the car, because the big idea was having no pedal or steering wheels, of course.
The other idea was being able to call into a 24 seven Apple Command Center and have them d…”
Gurman: Apple was committed to eliminating pedals and steering wheels until 2022
“So certainly they were thinking and putting an incredible amount of time into fallback options for the autonomy because they were
Till about two years ago, very much all in on the lack of pedals or steering wheels.”
Gurman: Apple Car's 2016 pivot caused hundreds of hardware layoffs
“Well, certainly the first embarrassment started to come out around 2016, 2017, when they had to do the first major pivot of the project, which was refocusing around that autonomous driving system, paring back some engineering and operations related to the deve…”
Gurman: Doug Field faced indecision from Tim Cook on Apple Car
“He implemented a lot of the fail safes for the backup to the autonomy, but he ran into issue after issue related to disagreement, Indecision from top Apple executives, including Tim Cook and really a desire to bring something to market while having this inhere…”
Gurman: Kevin Lynch recommended canceling Apple Car to reallocate engineers to AI
“And he made the decision ultimately to recommend that Apple winds down this car program. He thought it couldn't be done. He didn't know, ah, when they'd be able to pull off autonomy, and so him alongside Williams, you know, ultimately wound down the Titan proj…”
Gurman: Weak margins were the main factor in Apple canceling its car
“I think ultimately, to be honest with you, the biggest factor was probably, ah, the lack of profitability and the lack of strong margins that they saw coming from the car project.”
Gurman: Apple Car would exist today if it targeted Level 2
“I think they could have gotten it right if they didn't get so far down the road on level five autonomy, building its operations around level five, building its autonomous system around level five, spending 10 years building different car designs and infrastruc…”
Gurman: Apple views Vision Pro as an eventual iPhone and Mac replacement
“You know, I think Apple sees the Vision Pro as potentially a long-term replacement for multiple different product categories. I think they see it as something, ah, that has potential to replace the iPad as a consumption device, potential to replace the, ah, th…”
Gurman: Apple Vision Pro was an 8-to-10-year development effort
“The Vision Pro went on sale in February, 2024, so a little bit earlier this year. But development of that project kicked off around the same time as the Apple Car project, and you can argue the Vision Pro was an eight, nine, year, 10 program as well.”