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Feb 15, 2022 · 29m · founders-journal

Bonus: "How Twitch Co-founder Justin Kan Got Sober" from Imposters

Justin Kan · 14m spoken Alex Lieberman · 11m spoken
0:00 / 0:00

gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions

In the debut episode of Imposters, Twitch co-founder Justin Kan discusses his 23-year battle with alcohol dependency, revealing how permanent sobriety, mindfulness, and conscious leadership transformed his personal well-being and approach to startup setbacks.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Alex holds 45.9% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

Alex as informed peer 1.8 Guest teaching 1.0 Guest disagreement 0.1 Alex pushing back 0.1
05100:0010:0020:000:00–3:33 · Alex as informed peer 1/10 Introducing the Imposters Podcast Debut Alex delivers an introductory monologue and show framing for the debut of Imposters, including a pre-roll soundbite from Justin.3:34–5:54 · Alex as informed peer 1/10 The Origins of Alcohol as a Coping Mechanism Alex prompts Justin on how alcohol became tied to his identity, and Justin candidly details turning from shy to outgoing in college and using drinking to avoid difficult startup emotions.5:55–10:30 · Alex as informed peer 2/10 Twitch Success and Startup Heartbreak Alex provides background on Justin.tv, Twitch, and Exec before asking if Justin realized his drinking problem. Justin explains how startup hustle culture normalized binge drinking.10:31–13:48 · Alex as informed peer 1/10 Committing to Permanent Sobriety in 2019 Alex asks about the turning point toward sobriety. Justin details failed moderation attempts versus the clarity of a permanent public commitment on Twitter in 2019.13:59–17:41 · Alex as informed peer 2/10 Mindfulness and Unexpected Perks of Sobriety Alex reflects on post-exit founder psychology and asks about unexpected perks of sobriety. Justin shares gaining productive hours, emotional presence, and shifting from scarcity to joy.17:42–21:31 · Alex as informed peer 3/10 Conscious Leadership and Emotional Regulation Alex probes whether emotional volatility is mistakenly conflated with startup urgency. Justin references Conscious Leadership, acknowledging fear-based motivation works but conscious management is more fulfilling.21:33–24:51 · Alex as informed peer 2/10 Socializing Sober and Questioning Cultural Norms Alex shares his own college and New York startup experiences with alcohol culture, asking Justin for advice. Justin recommends founders proactively question cultural assumptions.24:52–27:45 · Alex as informed peer 2/10 Weathering Atrium's Failure Through Mindfulness Alex asks how Justin handled the shut down of Atrium without alcohol. Justin explains how mindfulness helped him endure layoffs and losses, before Alex closes with a box breathing tutorial.0:00–3:33 · Guest teaching 0/10 Introducing the Imposters Podcast Debut Alex delivers an introductory monologue and show framing for the debut of Imposters, including a pre-roll soundbite from Justin.3:34–5:54 · Guest teaching 1/10 The Origins of Alcohol as a Coping Mechanism Alex prompts Justin on how alcohol became tied to his identity, and Justin candidly details turning from shy to outgoing in college and using drinking to avoid difficult startup emotions.5:55–10:30 · Guest teaching 1/10 Twitch Success and Startup Heartbreak Alex provides background on Justin.tv, Twitch, and Exec before asking if Justin realized his drinking problem. Justin explains how startup hustle culture normalized binge drinking.10:31–13:48 · Guest teaching 1/10 Committing to Permanent Sobriety in 2019 Alex asks about the turning point toward sobriety. Justin details failed moderation attempts versus the clarity of a permanent public commitment on Twitter in 2019.13:59–17:41 · Guest teaching 1/10 Mindfulness and Unexpected Perks of Sobriety Alex reflects on post-exit founder psychology and asks about unexpected perks of sobriety. Justin shares gaining productive hours, emotional presence, and shifting from scarcity to joy.17:42–21:31 · Guest teaching 2/10 Conscious Leadership and Emotional Regulation Alex probes whether emotional volatility is mistakenly conflated with startup urgency. Justin references Conscious Leadership, acknowledging fear-based motivation works but conscious management is more fulfilling.21:33–24:51 · Guest teaching 1/10 Socializing Sober and Questioning Cultural Norms Alex shares his own college and New York startup experiences with alcohol culture, asking Justin for advice. Justin recommends founders proactively question cultural assumptions.24:52–27:45 · Guest teaching 1/10 Weathering Atrium's Failure Through Mindfulness Alex asks how Justin handled the shut down of Atrium without alcohol. Justin explains how mindfulness helped him endure layoffs and losses, before Alex closes with a box breathing tutorial.0:00–3:33 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Introducing the Imposters Podcast Debut Alex delivers an introductory monologue and show framing for the debut of Imposters, including a pre-roll soundbite from Justin.3:34–5:54 · Guest disagreement 0/10 The Origins of Alcohol as a Coping Mechanism Alex prompts Justin on how alcohol became tied to his identity, and Justin candidly details turning from shy to outgoing in college and using drinking to avoid difficult startup emotions.5:55–10:30 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Twitch Success and Startup Heartbreak Alex provides background on Justin.tv, Twitch, and Exec before asking if Justin realized his drinking problem. Justin explains how startup hustle culture normalized binge drinking.10:31–13:48 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Committing to Permanent Sobriety in 2019 Alex asks about the turning point toward sobriety. Justin details failed moderation attempts versus the clarity of a permanent public commitment on Twitter in 2019.13:59–17:41 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Mindfulness and Unexpected Perks of Sobriety Alex reflects on post-exit founder psychology and asks about unexpected perks of sobriety. Justin shares gaining productive hours, emotional presence, and shifting from scarcity to joy.17:42–21:31 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Conscious Leadership and Emotional Regulation Alex probes whether emotional volatility is mistakenly conflated with startup urgency. Justin references Conscious Leadership, acknowledging fear-based motivation works but conscious management is more fulfilling.21:33–24:51 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Socializing Sober and Questioning Cultural Norms Alex shares his own college and New York startup experiences with alcohol culture, asking Justin for advice. Justin recommends founders proactively question cultural assumptions.24:52–27:45 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Weathering Atrium's Failure Through Mindfulness Alex asks how Justin handled the shut down of Atrium without alcohol. Justin explains how mindfulness helped him endure layoffs and losses, before Alex closes with a box breathing tutorial.0:00–3:33 · Alex pushing back 0/10 Introducing the Imposters Podcast Debut Alex delivers an introductory monologue and show framing for the debut of Imposters, including a pre-roll soundbite from Justin.3:34–5:54 · Alex pushing back 0/10 The Origins of Alcohol as a Coping Mechanism Alex prompts Justin on how alcohol became tied to his identity, and Justin candidly details turning from shy to outgoing in college and using drinking to avoid difficult startup emotions.5:55–10:30 · Alex pushing back 0/10 Twitch Success and Startup Heartbreak Alex provides background on Justin.tv, Twitch, and Exec before asking if Justin realized his drinking problem. Justin explains how startup hustle culture normalized binge drinking.10:31–13:48 · Alex pushing back 0/10 Committing to Permanent Sobriety in 2019 Alex asks about the turning point toward sobriety. Justin details failed moderation attempts versus the clarity of a permanent public commitment on Twitter in 2019.13:59–17:41 · Alex pushing back 0/10 Mindfulness and Unexpected Perks of Sobriety Alex reflects on post-exit founder psychology and asks about unexpected perks of sobriety. Justin shares gaining productive hours, emotional presence, and shifting from scarcity to joy.17:42–21:31 · Alex pushing back 1/10 Conscious Leadership and Emotional Regulation Alex probes whether emotional volatility is mistakenly conflated with startup urgency. Justin references Conscious Leadership, acknowledging fear-based motivation works but conscious management is more fulfilling.21:33–24:51 · Alex pushing back 0/10 Socializing Sober and Questioning Cultural Norms Alex shares his own college and New York startup experiences with alcohol culture, asking Justin for advice. Justin recommends founders proactively question cultural assumptions.24:52–27:45 · Alex pushing back 0/10 Weathering Atrium's Failure Through Mindfulness Alex asks how Justin handled the shut down of Atrium without alcohol. Justin explains how mindfulness helped him endure layoffs and losses, before Alex closes with a box breathing tutorial.

speaking balance: gold is Alex, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · Alex 78.6% · guest 21.4%0:00 · Alex 78.6% · guest 21.4%3:00 · Alex 31.9% · guest 68.1%3:00 · Alex 31.9% · guest 68.1%6:00 · Alex 43.1% · guest 56.9%6:00 · Alex 43.1% · guest 56.9%9:00 · Alex 15.1% · guest 84.9%9:00 · Alex 15.1% · guest 84.9%12:00 · Alex 35.2% · guest 64.8%12:00 · Alex 35.2% · guest 64.8%15:00 · Alex 34.2% · guest 65.8%15:00 · Alex 34.2% · guest 65.8%18:00 · Alex 26.9% · guest 73.1%18:00 · Alex 26.9% · guest 73.1%21:00 · Alex 57.6% · guest 42.4%21:00 · Alex 57.6% · guest 42.4%24:00 · Alex 43.9% · guest 56.1%24:00 · Alex 43.9% · guest 56.1%27:00 · Alex 100% · guest 0%27:00 · Alex 100% · guest 0%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 20:11 Nuanced defense of alternative leadership models

Justin gently pushes back against standard founder dogma by citing Diana Chapman and acknowledging that while fear-based cultures work, conscious leadership is more sustainable.

 Hardest push from Alex ▶ 19:34 Alex challenges the necessity of founder emotional volatility

Alex challenges the pervasive startup belief that emotional reactivity and panic are required drivers of urgency when building a successful company.

 Biggest teaching moment ▶ 20:11 Justin teaches conscious leadership versus fear-based management

Justin educates Alex on the 15 commitments of conscious leadership and shares lessons from Diana Chapman on why founders default to fear.

 Alex holds their own ▶ 19:34 Alex synthesizes emotional regulation in founder culture

Alex articulates founder psychology by breaking down how entrepreneurs mistake emotional reactivity for productive urgency.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicAlex as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementAlex pushing backWhy
Introducing the Imposters Podcast Debut 1000 Alex delivers an introductory monologue and show framing for the debut of Imposters, including a pre-roll soundbite from Justin.
The Origins of Alcohol as a Coping Mechanism 1100 Alex prompts Justin on how alcohol became tied to his identity, and Justin candidly details turning from shy to outgoing in college and using drinking to avoid difficult startup emotions.
Twitch Success and Startup Heartbreak 2100 Alex provides background on Justin.tv, Twitch, and Exec before asking if Justin realized his drinking problem. Justin explains how startup hustle culture normalized binge drinking.
Committing to Permanent Sobriety in 2019 1100 Alex asks about the turning point toward sobriety. Justin details failed moderation attempts versus the clarity of a permanent public commitment on Twitter in 2019.
Mindfulness and Unexpected Perks of Sobriety 2100 Alex reflects on post-exit founder psychology and asks about unexpected perks of sobriety. Justin shares gaining productive hours, emotional presence, and shifting from scarcity to joy.
Conscious Leadership and Emotional Regulation 3211 Alex probes whether emotional volatility is mistakenly conflated with startup urgency. Justin references Conscious Leadership, acknowledging fear-based motivation works but conscious management is more fulfilling.
Socializing Sober and Questioning Cultural Norms 2100 Alex shares his own college and New York startup experiences with alcohol culture, asking Justin for advice. Justin recommends founders proactively question cultural assumptions.
Weathering Atrium's Failure Through Mindfulness 2100 Alex asks how Justin handled the shut down of Atrium without alcohol. Justin explains how mindfulness helped him endure layoffs and losses, before Alex closes with a box breathing tutorial.

Statements from this episode (6)

Disclosure
Kan: Startup failures and setbacks turned drinking into an escape mechanism
“Started my first startup and I continued like drinking and it became, you know, it was also like a crutch. Like it wasn't just Okay. I'm going to like go party. It was like, I feel upset about something, right? Like there's something that's not going my way in…”
Justin Kan Feb 15, 2022 ▶ 5:09
Disclosure
Kan: Startup 'work hard, play hard' culture normalized heavy drinking
“When I was in Startups, you know, it's kind of like, oh, well, we're working hard. We're playing hard, right? Like, so we're like working all these hours and we're like our whole life is lives are revolving around these companies. And so all our friends are he…”
Justin Kan Feb 15, 2022 ▶ 9:08
Insight
Kan: Committing to permanent sobriety is easier than temporary breaks
“But the part of it, I think more of it was just like knowing that there was no, like, Something to wait for at the end of the tunnel. Like it was just like, oh, this is the way it is the new normal for the rest of my life. That was my commitment made it way ea…”
Justin Kan Feb 15, 2022 ▶ 13:14
Disclosure
Kan: Startup investing is now driven by joy, not scarcity
“For me, kind of incubating companies, investing in companies, that's like a vehicle to do that, and if I just focus on the reason, you know, coming from a place of joy instead of coming from a place of scarcity, life's a lot better.”
Justin Kan Feb 15, 2022 ▶ 17:30
Disclosure
Kan refuses to build startups through constant stress and fear
“Maybe I don't think it's the case, but it could be the case of like being super wound up about like your company is what's going to work best, but I'm not going to live that way. So we're going to run the experiment and see if this works.”
Justin Kan Feb 15, 2022 ▶ 21:18
Assertion Supported
Kan on shutting down Atrium: laying off 180, losing tens of millions
“By doing that, I was able to pay off a 180 people and tell a bunch of people I'd lost millions of dollars, tens of millions of dollars, and be okay, and know like, oh, this is gonna pass, and I'm okay with it, and I mean, it sucks right now, it's, this experie…”
Justin Kan Feb 15, 2022 ▶ 25:56
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