The Exchanges

Q How long does it take you to realize a year? Okay.

A Basically COO roles were longer. They were three years. We tried it twice. For the most part, we give everybody about a year to prove themselves at 37 Signals. And so we hire somebody and they have about a year until we decide if we're going to hire them again. That's how I think of the second year. It's a rehire. It's not like a performance review where we look at numbers and it's like one simple question. I always try to like, if I can, I always try to boil everything down to a question that answers all the other questions. So the question we ask after the first year with any new employee is, knowing what I know now, would I hire them again? And that answers pretty much every question. Answers every question about performance, about attitude, culture, fit, all the stuff. If I know what I know now, would I hire them again? And so it turned out with the management stuff, we're like, it wasn't even about the people. It was more like, now that we know what we know now, would we create this position again? And the answer was no. So we eliminated those positions and never rehired for them. So that's how we kind of got back a little bit to, to a smaller size.

AI assessment note: “we give everybody about a year to prove themselves at 37 Signals”

Q software company to get to a billion dollars in sales of just pure software in a year. Yeah. But the first 30 Uh, employees of Microsoft were Bill Gates, his secretary, and 28 programmers. There's no, there's no fat at all. That's something you talk about a lot. Can you talk about your, the importance of keeping costs low, small teams, and then you want, essentially, like, no fat anywhere?

A We have 62 people at, at 37 signals, and we've gotten as high as, I think, 80 at some point, and then we're about 63, or 62 right now, which is, uh, feels really good. Um, but we also built a lot of things when we were much smaller. We had, like, 12 people way back in the day, or four people way back in the way, way, way days when we started out. So I've always been comfortable with small teams. I think that small teams work better, are better. There's fewer, there's less room for miscommunication, because I don't think companies really have communication problems. They have miscommunication problems. Like, when you have too many people, and too many layers, and someone misses this, and someone has to repeat something that happened, like, I want to avoid all of that. Get rid of all the things that get in the way of making good stuff. And I actually think too many people get in the way oftentimes, and you actually end up making worse stuff the more people who are involved. So we just try to keep the team small. Any team we have making something is usually two people, like two people working on a feature, one programmer, one designer. That's pretty much it. Sometimes someone else will come in here and there, but for the most part, it's two people. And it also keeps us honest. It prevents us from making things that we can't make with two people. So it just keeps everything tight a…

AI assessment note: “I think that small teams work better, are better. There's fewer, there's less room for miscommunication”

Q I made that. Yeah. Why do you draw so much inspiration from physical things?

A I'll take some guesses because I don't know, just like, I don't know why I like certain flavors. I just do, right? You can't really explain these things, but if I had to guess, again, it comes back to there's something real about them. Um, I like being able to hold things, touch things. I like texture. Something you'll see in a lot of our software products is actually texture, which is, it's not real. It's simulated, but a lot of software these days is very flat. I like gradients and colors and lines and some texture. I just find it to be very, Fulfilling and real to, like, rub your finger over something and feel it. I like patina. I like age on things. Software doesn't age. I mean, it does age. It can look old or whatever, but, like, software looks the same over time. A great building, a great, a great brick, to get back to bricks. Bricks are beautiful because they look even better as they get older. Um, they collect age on them. They get stronger. They're just, they build into other things. I just, there's something about the physical world to me that is just, We're from it. Ok, like, we are it. We are part of it. Like, there's something so fundamental about it that I try never to get too far away from it. Um, I would much rather lay on the ground than, like, fly in the air. You know, I just want to be closer to things that are real. Um, now, flying in the air is real, too, o…

AI assessment note: “there's something real about them. Um, I like being able to hold things”

Q Oh, now you've moved to Balibu. Are these rocks crystals?

A They're not crystals. I was gonna save that in case you asked me. They're not crystals. I'll just find something at the beach, or I'll find something interesting with a cool pattern in it, and I just, like, I just like it. I don't know. I love nature. I love all the textures and patterns and colors. Like, for example, you know, when you're coming up as a designer in the early days when I was designing, like, identities, like, logos and stuff, you kind of would go, you'd go through these, like, logo books. Or like corporate identity books. Um, I think there was an organization called, um, I want to call it Brand, but maybe I'm wrong. Print actually was this magazine that had all these pictures of business cards and stuff. And Every designer I know would look through other business cards for inspiration, for, like, color patterns, and palettes, and layouts, and like, I, I'm like, go outside. Like, the best designs ever are right there. That leaf is the best it's ever been. Obviously, it's, like, survived and evolved. This is a great thing. And so I, like, if you want to find great colors, look at a bird. Don't look at a book. Like, look, look, look at a leaf, right? Look at the ocean. Look, look, look, look, go to a tide pool, and just look at the colors in that tide pool. Look at the way the light reflects. Like, that's the real stuff. And whatever, I have goosebumps. Like, for …

AI assessment note: “They're not crystals. I'll just find something at the beach”

Q Could you use the word essence or no?

A I mean, essence is part of it, I think. Maybe you could. Um, what's the French word for essence? I want to hear you say it. Um, uh, essence. I don't know what the hell it is. But it's, it's more about the, the, um, It's, to me, it's purity. It's like, that's the beauty, is that this is the initial idea, this is the original concept, and this is the first execution of that idea in three dimensions, in, in a product. Actually, the, the, the gym I used to go to had some old concept, getting back to the concept two, old concept two rowers, and I actually really liked looking at the early ones, and then looking at the changes over the years, and in that case is, in that case, the changes were more functional. Like, they used better materials that lasted longer and stuff, but the idea, the fact that this idea of this product that's so good today was so pure back then, and still kind of the same thing, like, just gave me, I'm, I'm, I'm more attached to the brand because of that. Like, they didn't just add stuff to add stuff. They added stuff that literally did improve things, not just to sell new models, but to, you could see the material changes. Meanwhile, like, a lot of things like watches and stuff, it's just like, New dial colors and new stuff just to kind of sell more.

AI assessment note: “I mean, essence is part of it, I think. Maybe you could.”

Q How does it help you know yourself better?

A Well, that's not why I did it. Ok. I don't think I know myself better, but I, I feel more expansive now that, that there's more than I thought I knew. Like, um, here's how I kind of thought about it afterwards. Um, You have to picture an old car radio from maybe like the fifties or something, you know, like an old pickup truck had a car radio with a needle, and you could move, you know, move the dial and the needle moves, right? Get the little glass window with all the channels. And you're, you're in one of the channels. That's where you are all the time. You're in this channel. 95.7 is, is, is you. And psychedelics, like, let me turn the knob a little bit and tune into something else that's always been there. But I couldn't, I couldn't hear that frequency. Like, it's amazing. And then you're like, I, if you look at a radio and you turn the knob, you're picking up things that are there that you can't hear until you turn the knob. That's what it was like for me. And how does it make me a better whatever or know myself better? I think all experiences help you know yourself better. So it's just a mirror and a reflection and a, and a detail and a, and a, and a, and a crumb that creates the pile of you. I don't really know. It's not like that was a huge breakthrough for me, but it was fascinating. Enough to do it a few more times and learn a few more things that were just fascinatin…

AI assessment note: “I don't think I know myself better, but I, I feel more expansive”