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Jun 24, 2019 · 51m · capital-allocators

Martin Whittaker – JUST Capital (First Meeting, EP.02)

Martin Whittaker · 35m spoken Ted Seides · 11m spoken
0:00 / 0:00

gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions

Martin Whittaker, founding CEO of JUST Capital, joins Ted Seides to explain how nationwide public polling and rigorous data science redefine corporate excellence around stakeholder priorities. The discussion highlights how aligning institutional capital with worker welfare, societal impact, and operational integrity creates long-term financial outperformance.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Ted holds 24.3% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

Ted as informed peer 3.9 Guest teaching 3.3 Guest disagreement 0.5 Ted pushing back 1.0
05100:0015:0030:0045:005:14–9:09 · Ted as informed peer 2/10 Official Capital Allocators Podcast Disclaimer Ted opens with housekeeping and prompts Martin on his background. Martin shares his career trajectory from environmental risk PhD to family office investing without any contention.9:09–12:19 · Ted as informed peer 3/10 The Founding Vision and Nonprofit Structure of JUST Capital Ted inquires about the genesis and launch of JUST Capital. Martin details the co-founding role of Deepak Chopra and Paul Tudor Jones and explains why a 501(c)(3) nonprofit model was chosen.12:20–17:48 · Ted as informed peer 3/10 Defining Corporate Justness Through Public Polling Martin reframes Ted's question about defining corporate justness by explaining that JUST Capital does not define it, but rather polls the American public to determine priorities like worker pay and treatment.17:49–21:42 · Ted as informed peer 4/10 Survey Methodology and Data Science Rigor Ted presses on the technical rigor needed to avoid survey bias. Martin explains the multi-stage research methodology partnering with NORC at the University of Chicago and using decision modeling.21:42–26:04 · Ted as informed peer 6/10 Corporate Engagement, Index Creation, and the JUST ETF Ted probes on how JUST Capital's findings diverge from standard ESG models where environmental issues dominate and governance is weighted heavily. Martin explains how data ingestion leads to Russell 1000 rankings and the GSAM JUST ETF.26:06–28:52 · Ted as informed peer 5/10 Sponsor Message: Ridgeline Cloud Platform for Asset Managers Ted challenges Martin on whether the mission originally started with an alpha hypothesis versus pure impact. Martin clarifies that building a just market came first, with outperformance serving as an added validation.28:52–32:22 · Ted as informed peer 4/10 Investor Adoption and Data Integration Across Strategies Ted asks how outside asset managers integrate JUST data into active strategies. Martin explains early manager adoption and the rigorous due diligence institutional investors perform on their methodology.32:23–34:46 · Ted as informed peer 3/10 Evolving Beyond ESG to Reimagine Capitalism Martin expands the conversation beyond ESG products to the broader structural debate surrounding Milton Friedman's shareholder primacy and the need to modernize capitalism.34:47–37:45 · Ted as informed peer 5/10 Corporate Engagement and Social Factor Performance Ted asks how low-ranking firms engage and questions whether public perception aligns with real economic impact. Martin highlights that social factor performance ('S') provides substantial unexplained alpha.37:45–40:41 · Ted as informed peer 6/10 Industry Dynamics, Tech Scrutiny, and Leadership Attributes Ted pushes on potential spurious correlation, suggesting high-margin businesses can naturally afford to treat workers better. Martin acknowledges the tension between correlation and causation, pointing to management leadership quality as the underlying driver.40:41–44:48 · Ted as informed peer 5/10 Navigating Advocacy and Preserving Research Independence Ted drills into the core tension between running impartial polling research and engaging in policy advocacy. Martin emphasizes that preserving research independence is essential to maintain market credibility.44:49–48:06 · Ted as informed peer 3/10 Private Market Extension, Scaling Initiatives, and Measured Impact Ted asks about scaling the framework into private markets and tracking long-term corporate behavioral change. Martin discusses private market applicability and corporate disclosure milestones.48:07–48:56 · Ted as informed peer 2/10 Overcoming Institutional Inertia and Non-Profit Frustrations Ted asks about Martin's biggest operational frustrations and concludes with standard closing personal questions. Martin notes institutional inertia and resistance to changing traditional market dogmas.5:14–9:09 · Guest teaching 2/10 Official Capital Allocators Podcast Disclaimer Ted opens with housekeeping and prompts Martin on his background. Martin shares his career trajectory from environmental risk PhD to family office investing without any contention.9:09–12:19 · Guest teaching 3/10 The Founding Vision and Nonprofit Structure of JUST Capital Ted inquires about the genesis and launch of JUST Capital. Martin details the co-founding role of Deepak Chopra and Paul Tudor Jones and explains why a 501(c)(3) nonprofit model was chosen.12:20–17:48 · Guest teaching 4/10 Defining Corporate Justness Through Public Polling Martin reframes Ted's question about defining corporate justness by explaining that JUST Capital does not define it, but rather polls the American public to determine priorities like worker pay and treatment.17:49–21:42 · Guest teaching 4/10 Survey Methodology and Data Science Rigor Ted presses on the technical rigor needed to avoid survey bias. Martin explains the multi-stage research methodology partnering with NORC at the University of Chicago and using decision modeling.21:42–26:04 · Guest teaching 4/10 Corporate Engagement, Index Creation, and the JUST ETF Ted probes on how JUST Capital's findings diverge from standard ESG models where environmental issues dominate and governance is weighted heavily. Martin explains how data ingestion leads to Russell 1000 rankings and the GSAM JUST ETF.26:06–28:52 · Guest teaching 3/10 Sponsor Message: Ridgeline Cloud Platform for Asset Managers Ted challenges Martin on whether the mission originally started with an alpha hypothesis versus pure impact. Martin clarifies that building a just market came first, with outperformance serving as an added validation.28:52–32:22 · Guest teaching 3/10 Investor Adoption and Data Integration Across Strategies Ted asks how outside asset managers integrate JUST data into active strategies. Martin explains early manager adoption and the rigorous due diligence institutional investors perform on their methodology.32:23–34:46 · Guest teaching 4/10 Evolving Beyond ESG to Reimagine Capitalism Martin expands the conversation beyond ESG products to the broader structural debate surrounding Milton Friedman's shareholder primacy and the need to modernize capitalism.34:47–37:45 · Guest teaching 4/10 Corporate Engagement and Social Factor Performance Ted asks how low-ranking firms engage and questions whether public perception aligns with real economic impact. Martin highlights that social factor performance ('S') provides substantial unexplained alpha.37:45–40:41 · Guest teaching 3/10 Industry Dynamics, Tech Scrutiny, and Leadership Attributes Ted pushes on potential spurious correlation, suggesting high-margin businesses can naturally afford to treat workers better. Martin acknowledges the tension between correlation and causation, pointing to management leadership quality as the underlying driver.40:41–44:48 · Guest teaching 3/10 Navigating Advocacy and Preserving Research Independence Ted drills into the core tension between running impartial polling research and engaging in policy advocacy. Martin emphasizes that preserving research independence is essential to maintain market credibility.44:49–48:06 · Guest teaching 3/10 Private Market Extension, Scaling Initiatives, and Measured Impact Ted asks about scaling the framework into private markets and tracking long-term corporate behavioral change. Martin discusses private market applicability and corporate disclosure milestones.48:07–48:56 · Guest teaching 3/10 Overcoming Institutional Inertia and Non-Profit Frustrations Ted asks about Martin's biggest operational frustrations and concludes with standard closing personal questions. Martin notes institutional inertia and resistance to changing traditional market dogmas.5:14–9:09 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Official Capital Allocators Podcast Disclaimer Ted opens with housekeeping and prompts Martin on his background. Martin shares his career trajectory from environmental risk PhD to family office investing without any contention.9:09–12:19 · Guest disagreement 0/10 The Founding Vision and Nonprofit Structure of JUST Capital Ted inquires about the genesis and launch of JUST Capital. Martin details the co-founding role of Deepak Chopra and Paul Tudor Jones and explains why a 501(c)(3) nonprofit model was chosen.12:20–17:48 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Defining Corporate Justness Through Public Polling Martin reframes Ted's question about defining corporate justness by explaining that JUST Capital does not define it, but rather polls the American public to determine priorities like worker pay and treatment.17:49–21:42 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Survey Methodology and Data Science Rigor Ted presses on the technical rigor needed to avoid survey bias. Martin explains the multi-stage research methodology partnering with NORC at the University of Chicago and using decision modeling.21:42–26:04 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Corporate Engagement, Index Creation, and the JUST ETF Ted probes on how JUST Capital's findings diverge from standard ESG models where environmental issues dominate and governance is weighted heavily. Martin explains how data ingestion leads to Russell 1000 rankings and the GSAM JUST ETF.26:06–28:52 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Sponsor Message: Ridgeline Cloud Platform for Asset Managers Ted challenges Martin on whether the mission originally started with an alpha hypothesis versus pure impact. Martin clarifies that building a just market came first, with outperformance serving as an added validation.28:52–32:22 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Investor Adoption and Data Integration Across Strategies Ted asks how outside asset managers integrate JUST data into active strategies. Martin explains early manager adoption and the rigorous due diligence institutional investors perform on their methodology.32:23–34:46 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Evolving Beyond ESG to Reimagine Capitalism Martin expands the conversation beyond ESG products to the broader structural debate surrounding Milton Friedman's shareholder primacy and the need to modernize capitalism.34:47–37:45 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Corporate Engagement and Social Factor Performance Ted asks how low-ranking firms engage and questions whether public perception aligns with real economic impact. Martin highlights that social factor performance ('S') provides substantial unexplained alpha.37:45–40:41 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Industry Dynamics, Tech Scrutiny, and Leadership Attributes Ted pushes on potential spurious correlation, suggesting high-margin businesses can naturally afford to treat workers better. Martin acknowledges the tension between correlation and causation, pointing to management leadership quality as the underlying driver.40:41–44:48 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Navigating Advocacy and Preserving Research Independence Ted drills into the core tension between running impartial polling research and engaging in policy advocacy. Martin emphasizes that preserving research independence is essential to maintain market credibility.44:49–48:06 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Private Market Extension, Scaling Initiatives, and Measured Impact Ted asks about scaling the framework into private markets and tracking long-term corporate behavioral change. Martin discusses private market applicability and corporate disclosure milestones.48:07–48:56 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Overcoming Institutional Inertia and Non-Profit Frustrations Ted asks about Martin's biggest operational frustrations and concludes with standard closing personal questions. Martin notes institutional inertia and resistance to changing traditional market dogmas.5:14–9:09 · Ted pushing back 0/10 Official Capital Allocators Podcast Disclaimer Ted opens with housekeeping and prompts Martin on his background. Martin shares his career trajectory from environmental risk PhD to family office investing without any contention.9:09–12:19 · Ted pushing back 0/10 The Founding Vision and Nonprofit Structure of JUST Capital Ted inquires about the genesis and launch of JUST Capital. Martin details the co-founding role of Deepak Chopra and Paul Tudor Jones and explains why a 501(c)(3) nonprofit model was chosen.12:20–17:48 · Ted pushing back 0/10 Defining Corporate Justness Through Public Polling Martin reframes Ted's question about defining corporate justness by explaining that JUST Capital does not define it, but rather polls the American public to determine priorities like worker pay and treatment.17:49–21:42 · Ted pushing back 1/10 Survey Methodology and Data Science Rigor Ted presses on the technical rigor needed to avoid survey bias. Martin explains the multi-stage research methodology partnering with NORC at the University of Chicago and using decision modeling.21:42–26:04 · Ted pushing back 2/10 Corporate Engagement, Index Creation, and the JUST ETF Ted probes on how JUST Capital's findings diverge from standard ESG models where environmental issues dominate and governance is weighted heavily. Martin explains how data ingestion leads to Russell 1000 rankings and the GSAM JUST ETF.26:06–28:52 · Ted pushing back 2/10 Sponsor Message: Ridgeline Cloud Platform for Asset Managers Ted challenges Martin on whether the mission originally started with an alpha hypothesis versus pure impact. Martin clarifies that building a just market came first, with outperformance serving as an added validation.28:52–32:22 · Ted pushing back 1/10 Investor Adoption and Data Integration Across Strategies Ted asks how outside asset managers integrate JUST data into active strategies. Martin explains early manager adoption and the rigorous due diligence institutional investors perform on their methodology.32:23–34:46 · Ted pushing back 0/10 Evolving Beyond ESG to Reimagine Capitalism Martin expands the conversation beyond ESG products to the broader structural debate surrounding Milton Friedman's shareholder primacy and the need to modernize capitalism.34:47–37:45 · Ted pushing back 2/10 Corporate Engagement and Social Factor Performance Ted asks how low-ranking firms engage and questions whether public perception aligns with real economic impact. Martin highlights that social factor performance ('S') provides substantial unexplained alpha.37:45–40:41 · Ted pushing back 3/10 Industry Dynamics, Tech Scrutiny, and Leadership Attributes Ted pushes on potential spurious correlation, suggesting high-margin businesses can naturally afford to treat workers better. Martin acknowledges the tension between correlation and causation, pointing to management leadership quality as the underlying driver.40:41–44:48 · Ted pushing back 2/10 Navigating Advocacy and Preserving Research Independence Ted drills into the core tension between running impartial polling research and engaging in policy advocacy. Martin emphasizes that preserving research independence is essential to maintain market credibility.44:49–48:06 · Ted pushing back 0/10 Private Market Extension, Scaling Initiatives, and Measured Impact Ted asks about scaling the framework into private markets and tracking long-term corporate behavioral change. Martin discusses private market applicability and corporate disclosure milestones.48:07–48:56 · Ted pushing back 0/10 Overcoming Institutional Inertia and Non-Profit Frustrations Ted asks about Martin's biggest operational frustrations and concludes with standard closing personal questions. Martin notes institutional inertia and resistance to changing traditional market dogmas.

speaking balance: gold is Ted, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · Ted 100% · guest 0%0:00 · Ted 100% · guest 0%3:00 · Ted 90.8% · guest 9.2%3:00 · Ted 90.8% · guest 9.2%6:00 · Ted 9.7% · guest 90.3%6:00 · Ted 9.7% · guest 90.3%9:00 · Ted 5.6% · guest 94.4%9:00 · Ted 5.6% · guest 94.4%12:00 · Ted 9.2% · guest 90.8%12:00 · Ted 9.2% · guest 90.8%15:00 · Ted 6.4% · guest 93.6%15:00 · Ted 6.4% · guest 93.6%18:00 · Ted 10% · guest 90%18:00 · Ted 10% · guest 90%21:00 · Ted 20.6% · guest 79.4%21:00 · Ted 20.6% · guest 79.4%24:00 · Ted 30.3% · guest 69.7%24:00 · Ted 30.3% · guest 69.7%27:00 · Ted 26.6% · guest 73.4%27:00 · Ted 26.6% · guest 73.4%30:00 · Ted 11.1% · guest 88.9%30:00 · Ted 11.1% · guest 88.9%33:00 · Ted 6.8% · guest 93.2%33:00 · Ted 6.8% · guest 93.2%36:00 · Ted 24.5% · guest 75.5%36:00 · Ted 24.5% · guest 75.5%39:00 · Ted 34.5% · guest 65.5%39:00 · Ted 34.5% · guest 65.5%42:00 · Ted 4.4% · guest 95.6%42:00 · Ted 4.4% · guest 95.6%45:00 · Ted 3.8% · guest 96.2%45:00 · Ted 3.8% · guest 96.2%48:00 · Ted 11.4% · guest 88.6%48:00 · Ted 11.4% · guest 88.6%51:00 · Ted 79.4% · guest 20.6%51:00 · Ted 79.4% · guest 20.6%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 33:25 Martin rejects Milton Friedman's shareholder primacy model

Martin forcefully argues that 50 years of shareholder primacy is no longer fit for purpose and that capitalism must be systematically restructured to tackle wealth inequality.

 Hardest push from Ted ▶ 38:56 Ted challenges whether high margins cause spurious justness correlation

Ted directly challenges Martin on whether JUST Capital's scores merely reflect high-margin businesses having surplus cash rather than a genuine business ethos.

 Biggest teaching moment ▶ 12:26 Martin corrects the premise of defining corporate justness

Martin reframes Ted's foundational question by noting that JUST Capital avoids defining corporate justness themselves, relying strictly on empirical polling of the American public.

 Ted holds their own ▶ 21:42 Ted points out mismatch between public polling and standard ESG weighting

Ted demonstrates deep industry knowledge by noting how JUST Capital's low weighting of governance and environmental factors sharply contrasts with institutional ESG mandates.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicTed as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementTed pushing backWhy
Official Capital Allocators Podcast Disclaimer 2200 Ted opens with housekeeping and prompts Martin on his background. Martin shares his career trajectory from environmental risk PhD to family office investing without any contention.
The Founding Vision and Nonprofit Structure of JUST Capital 3300 Ted inquires about the genesis and launch of JUST Capital. Martin details the co-founding role of Deepak Chopra and Paul Tudor Jones and explains why a 501(c)(3) nonprofit model was chosen.
Defining Corporate Justness Through Public Polling 3410 Martin reframes Ted's question about defining corporate justness by explaining that JUST Capital does not define it, but rather polls the American public to determine priorities like worker pay and treatment.
Survey Methodology and Data Science Rigor 4401 Ted presses on the technical rigor needed to avoid survey bias. Martin explains the multi-stage research methodology partnering with NORC at the University of Chicago and using decision modeling.
Corporate Engagement, Index Creation, and the JUST ETF 6412 Ted probes on how JUST Capital's findings diverge from standard ESG models where environmental issues dominate and governance is weighted heavily. Martin explains how data ingestion leads to Russell 1000 rankings and the GSAM JUST ETF.
Sponsor Message: Ridgeline Cloud Platform for Asset Managers 5312 Ted challenges Martin on whether the mission originally started with an alpha hypothesis versus pure impact. Martin clarifies that building a just market came first, with outperformance serving as an added validation.
Investor Adoption and Data Integration Across Strategies 4301 Ted asks how outside asset managers integrate JUST data into active strategies. Martin explains early manager adoption and the rigorous due diligence institutional investors perform on their methodology.
Evolving Beyond ESG to Reimagine Capitalism 3410 Martin expands the conversation beyond ESG products to the broader structural debate surrounding Milton Friedman's shareholder primacy and the need to modernize capitalism.
Corporate Engagement and Social Factor Performance 5402 Ted asks how low-ranking firms engage and questions whether public perception aligns with real economic impact. Martin highlights that social factor performance ('S') provides substantial unexplained alpha.
Industry Dynamics, Tech Scrutiny, and Leadership Attributes 6313 Ted pushes on potential spurious correlation, suggesting high-margin businesses can naturally afford to treat workers better. Martin acknowledges the tension between correlation and causation, pointing to management leadership quality as the underlying driver.
Navigating Advocacy and Preserving Research Independence 5312 Ted drills into the core tension between running impartial polling research and engaging in policy advocacy. Martin emphasizes that preserving research independence is essential to maintain market credibility.
Private Market Extension, Scaling Initiatives, and Measured Impact 3300 Ted asks about scaling the framework into private markets and tracking long-term corporate behavioral change. Martin discusses private market applicability and corporate disclosure milestones.
Overcoming Institutional Inertia and Non-Profit Frustrations 2310 Ted asks about Martin's biggest operational frustrations and concludes with standard closing personal questions. Martin notes institutional inertia and resistance to changing traditional market dogmas.

Statements from this episode (12)

Opinion
Whittaker: There Is No Trade-Off Between Values Investing and Financial Returns
“Why there is no trade-off, which is my belief, but also knowing that at the root of it was the data and the processes and the discipline around how you get markets to focus on major social, economic, health, environmental challenges.”
Martin Whittaker Jun 24, 2019 ▶ 8:37
Assertion Supported
JUST Capital's founding board includes Paul Tudor Jones and Arianna Huffington
“Just Capital is a not-for-profit, which is even odder insofar as we're not a classic, but that is indeed our structure, and we formed that way because we're really about the mission, and the mission drives everything we do, and I was lucky enough to have some …”
Martin Whittaker Jun 24, 2019 ▶ 10:37
Assertion Supported
Whittaker: Millions of US frontline workers rely on food stamps
“Millions of Americans in frontline industries are not paid a living wage and rely on food stamps to get by.”
Martin Whittaker Jun 24, 2019 ▶ 14:46
Disclosure
Whittaker: JUST Capital never uses real company names in survey polling
“We don't name companies, so we're never polling on actual companies. These are all company A, company B. Because we don't want to get any brand confusion with naming actual companies.”
Martin Whittaker Jun 24, 2019 ▶ 21:07
Assertion Contradicted
Whittaker: Corporate engagement with JUST Capital tripled in 18 months
“Over the last 18 months, we've had a tripling of the number of companies that are in engagement with us. Now, 363 170 of the almost 900 companies we rank.”
Martin Whittaker Jun 24, 2019 ▶ 23:38
Assertion Supported
Top-quintile JUST companies materially outperform the bottom quintile
“The performance of just companies, We slice and dice this lots of ways. Tends to be very strong. You know, we see the top quintile, bottom quintile in our model, according to Justin, it's not financial performance, just ranking as a material spread.”
Martin Whittaker Jun 24, 2019 ▶ 28:24
Disclosure
Whittaker: JUST Capital Partnered with Goldman Sachs to Launch an ETF
“Obviously we partnered with Goldman Sachs Asset Management. They've been a wonderful partner on the launch of the ETF.”
Martin Whittaker Jun 24, 2019 ▶ 32:26
Assertion Partly supported
Whittaker: JUST Capital index has outperformed benchmark by 200 bps
“The index has outperformed its benchmark since inception by a couple hundred basis points.”
Martin Whittaker Jun 24, 2019 ▶ 36:57
Opinion
Whittaker: Social factors in ESG are an undiscovered source of alpha
“So, so I think the S of the ESG and the human element, let's call it, that we're picking up, is probably one of the most undiscovered sources of alpha. And when we do our factor analysis, one of the greatest contributors to the outperformance that we see.”
Martin Whittaker Jun 24, 2019 ▶ 37:21
Prediction Not checkable as stated
Whittaker predicted 2019 polling would punish tech companies over data privacy
“I think we may start to see a bit of a rebalance. We're in the middle of our 2019 polling right now. It'll be interesting to see how some of the travails that tech has been through in the last six months play out.”
Martin Whittaker Jun 24, 2019 ▶ 38:44
Insight
Whittaker: Impact investing requires tracking actual performance over stated policies
“It's all well and good for it to have a policy on gender pay equity. But how are you actually doing? You wouldn't invest in a company that had a policy to be profitable. You'd want to know what they're actually doing. So I don't see this as being any different…”
Martin Whittaker Jun 24, 2019 ▶ 46:16
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Whittaker: Tech company ran first living wage audit after JUST Capital involvement
“So we had a tech company recently do its first living wage audit. It had never done that before. Did that on account of our involvement with them.”
Martin Whittaker Jun 24, 2019 ▶ 47:26
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