Apr 20, 2024 · 54m · big-technology
Kara Swisher Rates Tech Leaders
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gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions
In this episode of the Big Technology Podcast, veteran technology journalist Kara Swisher joins Alex Kantrowitz to candidly critique Silicon Valley leadership, dissect the strategic race for artificial intelligence, and analyze the shifting economics of digital journalism following the release of her memoir, 'Burn Book.'
How this conversation actually went
Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Alex holds 22.8% of the talking time here. How this is scored →
Alex as informed peer 4.3 Guest teaching 4.3 Guest disagreement 5.5 Alex pushing back 2.5
speaking balance: gold is Alex, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 51:40 Kara mocks a16z's failed media ambition
Swisher bluntly recounts warning Andreessen Horowitz that their direct-to-consumer media venture would fail because they lacked media skills and operated in a difficult business.
Hardest push from Alex ▶ 18:25 Alex challenges media dependence on Big TechKantrowitz challenges the narrative blaming tech giants for journalism's decline, asking if news organizations should have built sustainable business models without relying on Facebook.
Biggest teaching moment ▶ 32:05 Kara dismantles the Kasparov founder analogyWhen Kantrowitz suggests tech leaders might possess chess-master-level intellect, Swisher flatly rejects the premise, explaining that founder success stems primarily from persistence and luck.
Alex holds their own ▶ 18:15 Alex articulates the publisher business failureKantrowitz draws on his direct digital media experience at BuzzFeed to argue why publishers made fatal strategic missteps chasing platform algorithms.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
| Chapter | Topic | Alex as informed peer | Guest teaching | Guest disagreement | Alex pushing back | Why |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Burn Book Success and Next Book Concept | 3 | 4 | 5 | 1 | Kantrowitz asks about the formula behind bestseller self-help books and prompts Swisher on her recent Jonathan Haidt interview. Swisher details how Haidt relied on weak studies while still being directionally right about social media harms. | |
| Critiquing Marc Andreessen and Venture Capital Hubris | 4 | 5 | 7 | 3 | Kantrowitz brings up Tesla's workforce cuts and suggests Neuralink is impressive. Swisher forcefully dismisses Andreessen and Musk's genius myth, noting ten other companies do Neuralink's work without the hand-waving. | |
| Starlink, SpaceX, and Government Dependence on Tech | 4 | 4 | 6 | 3 | Kantrowitz and Swisher discuss Starlink and Zuckerberg's pivot away from the metaverse into AI. Kantrowitz suggests tech leaders have to take wide bets, while Swisher argues Zuckerberg's metaverse push was purely egomaniacal. | |
| Big Tech's Hollowed Relationship with Journalism | 5 | 6 | 6 | 5 | Kantrowitz argues that tech platforms exiting news is positive and that journalism must develop independent business models. Swisher agrees newsrooms need new models but points out platforms hollowed out the ad market and refused liability. | |
| Sundar Pichai's Leadership and Google's Caution | 4 | 3 | 4 | 2 | Kantrowitz cites Pichai's past remark about AI being like electricity and fire. Swisher recalls advising Pichai early on to aggressively expand Google Cloud rather than yielding ground to Amazon. | |
| Tim Cook's Incremental Success and Apple's AI | 5 | 5 | 5 | 4 | Kantrowitz questions whether Tim Cook can deliver breakthrough hardware given Apple's cancelled car project. Swisher defends Cook, arguing a 10x market cap increase and disciplined software operations matter more than flashy product reveals. | |
| Satya Nadella and Microsoft's OpenAI Partnership | 5 | 3 | 5 | 2 | Kantrowitz asks whether Microsoft over-hedged on OpenAI and ties tech ambition back to the book's core theme of capitalism. Swisher praises Nadella's strategy and mocks founders who disguise profit motives behind savior complexes. | |
| Assessing Mark Cuban as an Authentic Business Figure | 5 | 6 | 6 | 3 | Kantrowitz presents a Kasparov chess thought experiment to ask whether tech founders possess unique genius. Swisher immediately rejects the premise, attributing their success to persistence, timing, and sheer luck rather than innate brilliance. | |
| Career Drive Post-Stroke and the Wealth Bubble | 4 | 3 | 4 | 1 | Kantrowitz asks Swisher about her post-stroke drive to keep working and quotes her book regarding AI surpassing biological intelligence. Swisher describes the insular bubble of wealth and argues that computing power naturally outperforms human data processing. | |
| AI's Disruption of Journalism and Copyright Content Scraping | 5 | 4 | 6 | 2 | Kantrowitz mentions reports of OpenAI scraping YouTube and asks if Swisher would demand compensation for her content. Swisher calls AI scrapers shoplifters and outlines the financial necessity for independent media to align revenue with costs. | |
| Expanding Audience Reach and Breaking OpenAI News | 4 | 4 | 5 | 2 | Kantrowitz asks how Swisher pivoted from beat tech reporting to reaching mainstream listeners. Swisher explains her focus on real-world tech impacts and recounts breaking the Sam Altman firing story out of frustration with false gossip. | |
| The Psychology of Leaks and Tech's Media Obsession | 4 | 5 | 7 | 2 | Kantrowitz asks why insiders leak to journalists instead of relying on corporate direct-to-consumer media. Swisher explains leaker psychology and ridicules venture capitalists who mistakenly thought they could build media empires. |
Statements from this episode (30)
Swisher: Pop-nonfiction bestsellers rely on a formula of studies and controversy
“There's like a few studies that you string together, or, you know, I just interviewed Jonathan Haidt, for example. You have a premise, then you string a few studies together, and then you get in arguments with people. That seems to be the way to do it.”
Swisher: Haidt is directionally correct that screens harm girls especially
“The screens are, have a deleterious effect on especially girls. I think there's no, I think directionally he's correct.”
Swisher calls Marc Andreessen a small-minded and remarkably stupid person
“I mean, I've never met someone who's so smart, who's so stupid. I don't know how else to say with him. He's such a small minded person.”
Swisher: Wealth and past inventions do not make tech leaders universal experts
“These people think that money and inventing a browser gives them license to say anything they want about everything, and honestly, they're experts at what they're experts on, and the other stuff, I'm a little less inclined to have to listen to their blather.”
Swisher: Musk deserves more credit than anyone for pushing EVs forward
“There's no one you could give more credit to than him in pushing forward the electric vehicle thing. Google tried a little bit, but he really did it, right? And so a lot of people tried and he did it.”
Swisher: Musk dropped the ball on Tesla innovation and alienated buyers
“I think he dropped the ball on innovation at the company. I think he alienated most of his natural buyers by being such an asshole.”
Swisher: There are 10 companies working on brain tech like Neuralink
“Well, no, let me just tell you, there are 10 companies like Neuralink. He's not the only one.”
Swisher: The Government Should Run Critical Infrastructure Like Starlink
“I think the government should be running it. I just don't understand why our government allowed this to happen, just like a lot of, I believe in public-private partnerships, but at some point, these are in the public interest. The public part should be driving…”
Swisher: Zuckerberg's Advisors Should Have Directed Meta to AI Much Earlier
“He, if he had the right people, they would have said AI is where we need to focus mark a long time ago.”
Swisher: Musk's Antics Make Zuckerberg Look Better by Comparison
“Musk is like playing a Bond villain. It's like, he's moving into Bond villain territory, but and Mark was sort of adjacent Bond villain adjacent kind of thing.”
Swisher: Tech platforms will never handle news well without liability to lawsuits
“I think everyone should be able to be sued, because then you do a lot better at your business if you have the threat of lawsuits, essentially. So that's not happening, and so they're never going to be good at it until they can be sued”
Swisher: Sheryl Sandberg offered to pay her to join Facebook Live
“I remember when Sheryl Sandberg called me and she's like, come on Facebook Live. I'm like, why? She goes, well, you'll be bigger. I said, I'm plenty big. Like, what do you, what do I get? And they go, well, we'll give you some money.”
Swisher: Larry Page and Sergey Brin running Google would be a disaster
“I mean, he's certainly better than Larry and Sergey, that's for sure. I mean, those two. Like, okay, that would be a disaster.
Why a disaster?
Because they're just, they've lost the narrative, the two of them.”
Swisher: Apple's stock is 10x higher under Tim Cook than Steve Jobs
“Tim Cook has managed to get over that, like, because the stock is so hot, you know, it's, it goes up and down, but it's about 10 X from when Steve Jobs ran it, right?”
Swisher says Apple needs AI partners because it doesn't steal data
“Why they have to partner with someone. They don't collect information the way the others do. They're not information thieves the way the others are.”
Swisher: Apple's AI features will be subtle cross-device integrations
“I think you'll, you'll see, it'll be something so subtle. I know you're expecting some like beautiful, gorgeous thing, but yeah, I think your phone will talk to your AirPods better and then it'll all coordinate.”
Swisher: Andy Jassy Probably Does Not Know What to Do with Whole Foods
“I think he probably doesn't know what to do with Whole Foods. Like, what are we doing this for?”
Swisher: Nadella's OpenAI deal and diverse AI bets are smart strategy
“No, I think they've got a, I think that was a smart move. I think he's got to do it himself. I think picking up great information and great computing resources, that company sure should be right in the middle of this. No, I thought that was smart. He affiliate…”
Swisher: Sam Altman is super aggressive yet uniquely admits problems
“Oh, I think he's super aggressive. I've met him when he was 19, so I have a long history with him. You know, he's like the rest of them. He's super aggressive. He's much more thoughtful. He has much calmer voice and everything else. He at least, you know, lean…”
Swisher suspects OpenAI's subscription business is not very big
“I mean, you have subscriptions, but I suspect it's not a very big business.”
Swisher: Most VCs pontificating on Ukraine are idiotic beyond belief
“Like, V.C. Is talking about Ukraine. No thank you. They're idiotic beyond belief, most of them.”
Swisher: Elon Musk taking credit for everything is Trumpian
“Just like Elon taking credit for everything, like, you can't do anything without taking credit. It's so Trumpian, like, I, Only I can do this”
Swisher: OpenAI will not remain at the center of AI
“You know, it's obviously at the white hot center of everything, but I don't think it will remain there. No, I don't. No. I mean, unless he's the best business person in history, but I don't think he is.”
Swisher: Media creators resisting AI tools are destined to fail
“And I think those who resist it and just sort of, you know, bemoan their fate or destined to fail, that's for sure.”
Swisher: Tech companies scraping content for AI training are shoplifters
“They're shoplifters, they've been shoplifters forever. So no, they're not just pointing to me, they're taking my things.”
Swisher: CNN and global news networks will establish sustainable business models
“I think the CNNs will figure it out. It's a Global Information Network. They'll come up with a business in line with its costs. I don't think they're out at all.”
Swisher: Insiders close to Elon Musk text her about his personal problems
“I have a lot of people close to Elon who are texting me, which I'm like, oh, I don't want to hear about this, you know, about his personal problems.”
Swisher told Andreessen Horowitz its media publication would suck and fail
“You remember when Andreessen Horowitz was doing his media up or whatever. When they did that, they're like, one of them called me, and they're like, we're going to beat you. It's your own game. I'm like, one, you'll suck. Two, it's a shitty business. Enjoy. I …”
Swisher: Tech leaders who disdain the media are paradoxically obsessed with it
“You know, I've never met a group of people that actually talk about their disdain for the media that never stop thinking about the media. That's my interesting little... They're just very obsessed with the media in a way that's, I'm not obsessed with them for …”