Jan 24, 2021 · 30m · another-podcast

Why do we care about games?

Benedict Evans · 19m spoken Toni Cowan-Brown · 7m spoken
0:00 / 0:00

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Tech analysts Benedict Evans and Toni Cowan-Brown analyze the video game industry from an outsider perspective, exploring its business models, platform scalability, and growing impact as virtual social spaces.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. The hosts hold 99.9% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

The hosts as informed peer 7.2 Guest teaching 1.6 Guest disagreement 1.2 The hosts pushing back 2.4
05100:0010:0020:0030:002:00–9:02 · The hosts as informed peer 7/10 The History of Gaming and Transition to Pop Culture Benedict Evans provides deep historical tech industry context, comparing PC installation figures in 1994 to smartphone growth and analyzing TikTok's UX. Toni Cowan-Brown complements with contemporary examples like AOC streaming Among Us and TikTok duets. The tone is highly collaborative and analytical.9:02–13:40 · The hosts as informed peer 8/10 Assessing VR: Universal Platform or Niche Console? Benedict rigorously assesses VR's addressable market by contrasting universal platforms like smartphones with narrow console hardware markets. Toni shares personal user experience observations supporting the skepticism regarding VR's stickiness. The discussion remains deeply analytical without antagonism.13:41–19:45 · The hosts as informed peer 8/10 Metaverses, Industry Hits, and Market Realities Benedict pushes back against broad industry narratives claiming gaming is universally taking over, pointing out that historical MMOGs like World of Warcraft were isolated hits rather than structural shifts, and questioning singular market research sources. Toni frames the cultural and metaverse dimensions before aligning with the market reality check.19:45–28:56 · The hosts as informed peer 7/10 Esports, Graphic Fidelity vs. Social Logic, and Gamification The hosts break down graphic arms races versus social logic using Among Us, Minecraft, and Roblox, while analyzing gamification in retail trading and politics. Both speakers build on each other's points seamlessly without conflict.28:57–30:31 · The hosts as informed peer 6/10 Pandemic Acceleration and the Concluding Outlook on Gaming The hosts conclude by summarizing pandemic-forced experiments across e-commerce, media, and gaming. They agreeably synthesize how gaming has converged with mainstream tech and culture.2:00–9:02 · Guest teaching 2/10 The History of Gaming and Transition to Pop Culture Benedict Evans provides deep historical tech industry context, comparing PC installation figures in 1994 to smartphone growth and analyzing TikTok's UX. Toni Cowan-Brown complements with contemporary examples like AOC streaming Among Us and TikTok duets. The tone is highly collaborative and analytical.9:02–13:40 · Guest teaching 1/10 Assessing VR: Universal Platform or Niche Console? Benedict rigorously assesses VR's addressable market by contrasting universal platforms like smartphones with narrow console hardware markets. Toni shares personal user experience observations supporting the skepticism regarding VR's stickiness. The discussion remains deeply analytical without antagonism.13:41–19:45 · Guest teaching 2/10 Metaverses, Industry Hits, and Market Realities Benedict pushes back against broad industry narratives claiming gaming is universally taking over, pointing out that historical MMOGs like World of Warcraft were isolated hits rather than structural shifts, and questioning singular market research sources. Toni frames the cultural and metaverse dimensions before aligning with the market reality check.19:45–28:56 · Guest teaching 2/10 Esports, Graphic Fidelity vs. Social Logic, and Gamification The hosts break down graphic arms races versus social logic using Among Us, Minecraft, and Roblox, while analyzing gamification in retail trading and politics. Both speakers build on each other's points seamlessly without conflict.28:57–30:31 · Guest teaching 1/10 Pandemic Acceleration and the Concluding Outlook on Gaming The hosts conclude by summarizing pandemic-forced experiments across e-commerce, media, and gaming. They agreeably synthesize how gaming has converged with mainstream tech and culture.2:00–9:02 · Guest disagreement 1/10 The History of Gaming and Transition to Pop Culture Benedict Evans provides deep historical tech industry context, comparing PC installation figures in 1994 to smartphone growth and analyzing TikTok's UX. Toni Cowan-Brown complements with contemporary examples like AOC streaming Among Us and TikTok duets. The tone is highly collaborative and analytical.9:02–13:40 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Assessing VR: Universal Platform or Niche Console? Benedict rigorously assesses VR's addressable market by contrasting universal platforms like smartphones with narrow console hardware markets. Toni shares personal user experience observations supporting the skepticism regarding VR's stickiness. The discussion remains deeply analytical without antagonism.13:41–19:45 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Metaverses, Industry Hits, and Market Realities Benedict pushes back against broad industry narratives claiming gaming is universally taking over, pointing out that historical MMOGs like World of Warcraft were isolated hits rather than structural shifts, and questioning singular market research sources. Toni frames the cultural and metaverse dimensions before aligning with the market reality check.19:45–28:56 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Esports, Graphic Fidelity vs. Social Logic, and Gamification The hosts break down graphic arms races versus social logic using Among Us, Minecraft, and Roblox, while analyzing gamification in retail trading and politics. Both speakers build on each other's points seamlessly without conflict.28:57–30:31 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Pandemic Acceleration and the Concluding Outlook on Gaming The hosts conclude by summarizing pandemic-forced experiments across e-commerce, media, and gaming. They agreeably synthesize how gaming has converged with mainstream tech and culture.2:00–9:02 · The hosts pushing back 2/10 The History of Gaming and Transition to Pop Culture Benedict Evans provides deep historical tech industry context, comparing PC installation figures in 1994 to smartphone growth and analyzing TikTok's UX. Toni Cowan-Brown complements with contemporary examples like AOC streaming Among Us and TikTok duets. The tone is highly collaborative and analytical.9:02–13:40 · The hosts pushing back 3/10 Assessing VR: Universal Platform or Niche Console? Benedict rigorously assesses VR's addressable market by contrasting universal platforms like smartphones with narrow console hardware markets. Toni shares personal user experience observations supporting the skepticism regarding VR's stickiness. The discussion remains deeply analytical without antagonism.13:41–19:45 · The hosts pushing back 4/10 Metaverses, Industry Hits, and Market Realities Benedict pushes back against broad industry narratives claiming gaming is universally taking over, pointing out that historical MMOGs like World of Warcraft were isolated hits rather than structural shifts, and questioning singular market research sources. Toni frames the cultural and metaverse dimensions before aligning with the market reality check.19:45–28:56 · The hosts pushing back 2/10 Esports, Graphic Fidelity vs. Social Logic, and Gamification The hosts break down graphic arms races versus social logic using Among Us, Minecraft, and Roblox, while analyzing gamification in retail trading and politics. Both speakers build on each other's points seamlessly without conflict.28:57–30:31 · The hosts pushing back 1/10 Pandemic Acceleration and the Concluding Outlook on Gaming The hosts conclude by summarizing pandemic-forced experiments across e-commerce, media, and gaming. They agreeably synthesize how gaming has converged with mainstream tech and culture.

speaking balance: gold is the hosts, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · the hosts 100% · guest 0%0:00 · the hosts 100% · guest 0%3:00 · the hosts 99.9% · guest 0.1%3:00 · the hosts 99.9% · guest 0.1%6:00 · the hosts 99.9% · guest 0.1%6:00 · the hosts 99.9% · guest 0.1%9:00 · the hosts 99.8% · guest 0.2%9:00 · the hosts 99.8% · guest 0.2%12:00 · the hosts 100% · guest 0%12:00 · the hosts 100% · guest 0%15:00 · the hosts 100% · guest 0%15:00 · the hosts 100% · guest 0%18:00 · the hosts 100% · guest 0%18:00 · the hosts 100% · guest 0%21:00 · the hosts 100% · guest 0%21:00 · the hosts 100% · guest 0%24:00 · the hosts 99.2% · guest 0.8%24:00 · the hosts 99.2% · guest 0.8%27:00 · the hosts 99.9% · guest 0.1%27:00 · the hosts 99.9% · guest 0.1%30:00 · the hosts 100% · guest 0%30:00 · the hosts 100% · guest 0%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 13:41 Mild disagreement over VR universality versus gaming

Toni gently challenges broad assumptions by asserting VR will remain niche unless it satisfies essential human community connection, diverging slightly from hardware-centric market evolution.

Hardest push from the hosts ▶ 16:40 Skepticism of industry growth charts and narrative hype

Benedict actively pushes back on prevailing gaming explosion narratives, highlighting that 90% of mobile growth is casual games like Candy Crush and questioning methodology from single-source market research.

Biggest teaching moment ▶ 4:01 Reframing gaming competition via Reed Hastings quote

Toni reframes the gaming debate for the audience by introducing Netflix CEO Reed Hastings viewing Fortnite as stiffer competition for leisure time than traditional streaming services.

The host holds their own ▶ 15:40 Historical MMOG comparison to modern Metaverse hype

Benedict draws on deep industry recall from NBC Universal to demonstrate that most supposed paradigm shifts like MMOGs ended up being standalone hits like World of Warcraft rather than new platforms.

the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicThe hosts as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementThe hosts pushing backWhy
The History of Gaming and Transition to Pop Culture 7212 Benedict Evans provides deep historical tech industry context, comparing PC installation figures in 1994 to smartphone growth and analyzing TikTok's UX. Toni Cowan-Brown complements with contemporary examples like AOC streaming Among Us and TikTok duets. The tone is highly collaborative and analytical.
Assessing VR: Universal Platform or Niche Console? 8113 Benedict rigorously assesses VR's addressable market by contrasting universal platforms like smartphones with narrow console hardware markets. Toni shares personal user experience observations supporting the skepticism regarding VR's stickiness. The discussion remains deeply analytical without antagonism.
Metaverses, Industry Hits, and Market Realities 8224 Benedict pushes back against broad industry narratives claiming gaming is universally taking over, pointing out that historical MMOGs like World of Warcraft were isolated hits rather than structural shifts, and questioning singular market research sources. Toni frames the cultural and metaverse dimensions before aligning with the market reality check.
Esports, Graphic Fidelity vs. Social Logic, and Gamification 7212 The hosts break down graphic arms races versus social logic using Among Us, Minecraft, and Roblox, while analyzing gamification in retail trading and politics. Both speakers build on each other's points seamlessly without conflict.
Pandemic Acceleration and the Concluding Outlook on Gaming 6111 The hosts conclude by summarizing pandemic-forced experiments across e-commerce, media, and gaming. They agreeably synthesize how gaming has converged with mainstream tech and culture.

Statements from this episode (11)

Prediction Held up
Evans: US Online Advertising Will Reach $125 Billion in 2021
“Online advertising will be a hundred and twenty five billion dollars in the USA this year, and literally no one who doesn't work on an ad team knows what a DSP is.”
Benedict Evans Jan 24, 2021 ▶ 1:33
Assertion Partly supported
Evans: In 1994, only 25 million consumer PCs existed globally
“When Netscape launched in 1994, there were less than a hundred million PCs on us. And probably three quarters of them were in company. So there were like twenty-five million consumer PCs on the planet.”
Benedict Evans Jan 24, 2021 ▶ 6:03
Opinion
Evans: Google's UX is inherently bad; TikTok's UX is the innovation
“YouTube is a utility that distributes video. But the UX itself, A, it's a Google UX, so Ipso facto is shit, but B, like, the UX is like a utility UX, whereas for TikTok, the whole point is the UX. That's where the innovation is, and the UX is pop culture.”
Benedict Evans Jan 24, 2021 ▶ 7:11
Insight
Evans: For Facebook's VR to succeed, it must transcend gaming
“And so for Facebook, paradoxically, VR needs to not be about games.”
Benedict Evans Jan 24, 2021 ▶ 10:33
Prediction Not checkable as stated
Cowan-Brown: Gaming Will Become Universal, but VR Will Not
“I have a sense that gaming is going to become universal, and I'll chat about that in a second, but I don't see VR becoming a universal thing.”
Toni Cowan-Brown Jan 24, 2021 ▶ 13:42
Insight
Evans: Hit Games Rarely Signal a New Industry Paradigm
“Sometimes a hit is just a hit. Sometimes a hit is not the harbinger of a fundamentally new industry structure.”
Benedict Evans Jan 24, 2021 ▶ 16:32
Opinion
Evans: VR Is a Narrower Subset of Consoles, Not Expanding TAM
“VR, as we sort of said earlier, seems to be like a deeper, narrower subset of games consoles. It's not changing what the TAM is.”
Benedict Evans Jan 24, 2021 ▶ 18:48
Insight
Evans: Nintendo Wii proved the market for non-gamers is actually small
“The whole point of we was, Computer games for people who don't like computer games, and it turned out that the market, the number of people who don't like computer games who want to buy computer games is not very large.”
Benedict Evans Jan 24, 2021 ▶ 19:29
Assertion Supported
Evans: VR hardware saw no lockdown sales surge until Oculus Quest 2
“It did have a surge when the Oculus Two came out, but it did not have a surge from lockdown at all.”
Benedict Evans Jan 24, 2021 ▶ 21:01
Assertion Partly supported
Evans: Global recorded music industry revenue is under $20 billion
“The entire global revenue of the recorded music industry is less than twenty billion dollars. Global advertising is over two hundred billion dollars.”
Benedict Evans Jan 24, 2021 ▶ 26:30
Insight
Evans: Tech and media can no longer ignore the gaming industry
“For the last 20 years in tech or media, you could basically not pay much attention to games. And now, maybe not. Now maybe that all kind of blurs into one again.”
Benedict Evans Jan 24, 2021 ▶ 30:15
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