TikTok, every mention
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tap a year for its mentions
every year anyone Benedict Evans 227Toni Cowan-Brown 144Toni Campbell 1Toni Cairn-Brown 1Jay Goldberg 1
Verbatim, from the transcripts: the passages where TikTok comes up
The end of the network effect
- ▶ 20:37 Benedict Evans At least Mindspace had a network effect, and it turned out that network effects in social are actually quite fragile, and you can have many of them, so you could have Instagram and TikTok, um, but, you know, here we don't have any of that,…
A double episode: AI differentiation, and Apple does F1
- ▶ 12:12 Benedict Evans And they, you've got those low-level primitives of sharing a slug of text or share a slug of video or share a comment, but actually Instagram and Facebook and TikTok and YouTube work very differently and Pinterest and, and then go off and… 2 times in the scene
Looking for AI strategies
- ▶ 0:55 Benedict Evans Or you can pick up the iPhone, and Android, and BlackBerry, and Windows Phone, and Siri, and Memo, and MyGo, and like, all the stuff that was happening, and kind of think, well, they're trying to do this, and this product's trying to do…
- ▶ 11:01 Benedict Evans Um, and yes, you can say at one level, you wouldn't really know the difference between iOS and Android, but there are pretty, pretty basic differences in how they work and what they do and what they're trying to do, and the very big…
- ▶ 27:36 Benedict Evans Content, content, content creation in Formula One and TikTok.
Ai eats the world
- ▶ 37:33 Benedict Evans Who will argue that no, no, no, the PC is the platform and smartphones are just for consuming as though these people have never heard of Instagram or TikTok or social media or anything else.
From SAAS software to Formula 1
- ▶ 5:24 Toni Cowan-Brown Um, and TikTok was on the rise, and I thought, well, let's, 2 times in the scene
- ▶ 27:23 Toni Cowan-Brown TikTok happened.
Google's Antitrust case
- ▶ 26:41 Benedict Evans Which is kind of ironic, because the market definition, which is, we talked about before, Google tried to say, we don't have a monopoly because we compete with Amazon, and TikTok, and Facebook search, and with Booking.com for flight search.
The AI summer
- ▶ 7:59 Benedict Evans On the other hand, if we think about what happened with mobile, you could draw a comparison between Flickr and Instagram and TikTok and Snap. 6 times in the scene
Tiktok, Apple and Temu
- ▶ 0:04 Toni Cowan-Brown So Congress is trying to ban TikTok or force it to sell. 3 times in the scene
- ▶ 7:22 Benedict Evans And I think that's the kind of interesting pivot point to compare with TikTok because with.
- ▶ 8:38 Benedict Evans But the reason I'm sort of scary making that point is this is really interesting contrast with TikTok, because in the US, um, America doesn't have a federal privacy law. 6 times in the scene
- ▶ 12:01 Toni Cowan-Brown It's also worth adding, there's a layer to here, and I remember doing a TikTok video on this, like, three years ago, and the comments section were just, it was interesting how he had triggered so many people, but saying that, like,… 3 times in the scene
- ▶ 13:54 Toni Cowan-Brown And is the, is the demand right now that they find an American company to buy it? 4 times in the scene
- ▶ 19:10 Benedict Evans Going back to TikTok, um, it is actually, you know, unlike a lot of the, um, the EU proposals, which sort of ask you to do, um, X and Y at the same time, X and not X at the same time. 6 times in the scene
- ▶ 24:22 Toni Cowan-Brown There's also a really interesting, it's a fascinating moment that this is happening right now, because they're also, Biden and his administration are also relying on this same app that they are trying to ban to energize the youth vote, and… 7 times in the scene
- ▶ 26:42 Toni Cowan-Brown And I've seen many TikToks of people explaining how you pronounce Sheehan, so I'm, I know we're right on that one. 3 times in the scene
- ▶ 31:31 Benedict Evans Like, sort of zooming up several levels here, point around, um, like, you completely disaggregate spectrum ownership, and TV channels, and cable networks, and retail stores, and shopping malls, and you explode all of that, and now you… 2 times in the scene
- ▶ 34:07 Benedict Evans Um, I just think it's interesting to throw all of these different things around and match them up with Timu and Sheehan and TikTok.
Breaking and remaking media
- ▶ 0:19 Toni Cowan-Brown Um, Universal has pulled all of its music from TikTok, and I'm glad to say that I'm someone who doesn't use music on my TikTok, so I'm not someone who's had to go back and look at silent TikToks of myself. 3 times in the scene
- ▶ 12:48 Toni Cowan-Brown The way you consume something like TikTok and YouTube is fundamentally different than the way you would consume your movie library. 2 times in the scene
AI and Everything Else
- ▶ 30:59 Benedict Evans I don't, you know, there's, we're kind of at that very early stage where, you know, go back and think about what it was like holding an iPhone in 2008 with the App Store, and there was no Uber, there was no Instagram, there was no Tinder,…
LLMs, links, and the death of links
- ▶ 6:02 Benedict Evans Follow people, and you would like, and you would repost stuff, so that was a step, major step forward after WordPress, as WordPress theoretically had kind of trackbacks, but no one ever really used or understood that, and then of course… 3 times in the scene
- ▶ 10:03 Benedict Evans And so, this is, you say, now you've got your app, and you subscribe to my website, and my Instagram, and my TikTok, and you see all this stuff in one UI.
- ▶ 13:18 Benedict Evans There's like these sort of concentric circles of interconnected, of signal, um, which you have when you're a sealed system, like TikTok.
- ▶ 22:36 Benedict Evans TikTok does. 3 times in the scene
- ▶ 25:35 Toni Cowan-Brown And you'll, and we've also, I think that's where my head is going as well, and we've also got a myriad of places where we get to consume the content, which is why people who do newsletters like you works, because I can be in a, I can spend… 3 times in the scene
- ▶ 29:34 Benedict Evans Book TikTok.
Threads
- ▶ 18:22 Benedict Evans Instagram or YouTube or TikTok
- ▶ 36:37 Toni Cowan-Brown I mean, Lemonade was another one that from, from TikTok and ByteDance a couple of months ago that went nowhere.
Working out AI questions
- ▶ 33:00 Toni Campbell And we're seeing a lot of that on TikTok.
Buzzfeed News, Reddit and OpenAI
- ▶ 6:12 Benedict Evans If you are reliant on Facebook or Google or TikTok or anything else, you all put your business is not their priority. 3 times in the scene
- ▶ 28:47 Benedict Evans Someone sent me a tweet of where Evan, like Carl Swisher had asked Evan Spiegel, would you like TikTok to be shut down?
AI, copyright and collective knowledge
- ▶ 16:54 Toni Cairn-Brown We've seen this more and more with the likes of TikTok.
The right questions to ask about TikTok
- ▶ 1:01 Toni Cowan-Brown With that said, we thought it was maybe about time to talk a little bit more about TikTok, which we haven't done in a while, especially because I think right now social media seems to be having 6 times in the scene
- ▶ 2:18 Benedict Evans Well, so there's a sort of sort of primary point here, which is it looks like, um, you know, hundreds of millions of people and certainly a couple of hundred million people in America use TikTok. 3 times in the scene
- ▶ 5:56 Toni Cowan-Brown How users who want to talk about these topics on TikTok are skirting this by creating new words that's not being picked up or making sure in the captions that word is being reused. 2 times in the scene
- ▶ 9:08 Toni Cowan-Brown Because I, like, for example, I got most of my updates about what's happening in Iran right now from TikTok quickly. 6 times in the scene
- ▶ 17:05 Benedict Evans Um, and I wouldn't go so far as to say that about TikTok, but there is certainly this kind of sense of, like, everyone uses YouTube, and everyone sort of knows that TikTok is this big thing, but the sort of tech conversation in general… 12 times in the scene
- ▶ 19:21 Benedict Evans Yeah, I mean, I, I think there's a sort of, um, it's almost like an incorrect analysis, which was, I'm trying to think of the right word, which is like, we kind of went down the line of thinking that TikTok competed with Instagram and… 14 times in the scene
- ▶ 25:09 Benedict Evans Pull people, it's, you know, there's an incentive to get people to watch your YouTube rather than get people to read your blog post, and, um, then you've got a subscription, then you've got a subscriber, and, and then people come back to… 8 times in the scene
- ▶ 32:13 Benedict Evans Um, Instagram does, YouTube does, TikTok does. 4 times in the scene
- ▶ 37:28 Toni Cowan-Brown Do you see TikTok then as social entertainment, something different? 6 times in the scene
Amazon's $40B advertising business
- ▶ 16:40 Toni Cowan-Brown And another platform that we've got to talk about and, and look at is obviously TikTok. 7 times in the scene
ChatGPT versus Google
- ▶ 11:09 Toni Cowan-Brown Like, that's, again, like, I will search on Google, and I will then open up YouTube, and I will search for answers on YouTube, and I guess that's the vertical searching in, in me, that I just, like, I know there's a couple of different, or… 2 times in the scene
Generative search
- ▶ 5:18 Benedict Evans Um, when you go to mobile, you get not just Instagram, but also Snapchat, and then TikTok, which are all things that you, I mean, you could certainly do Instagram on the desktop. 2 times in the scene
- ▶ 7:11 Toni Cowan-Brown We know that this is something that TikTok has done really well. 5 times in the scene
- ▶ 13:12 Benedict Evans TikTok is brilliant.
Why are chips interesting again?
- ▶ 12:52 Jay Goldberg There, there is a, a guy I follow on TikTok, who is building a CPU with breadboards, like individual wires.
No Soup for You! Regulating tech M&A
- ▶ 32:36 Benedict Evans And so now there's TikTok, and is TikTok competing? 4 times in the scene
ChatGPT and the Imagenet Moment
- ▶ 26:03 Toni Cowan-Brown It's so interesting, because I, this is where my head was at last night, because this is basically what I've spent the last two years doing on TikTok for new F-One fans, is they have questions, and I go and search the web, and I ask, I ask…
All the other things happening in tech part 1.
- ▶ 1:27 Benedict Evans TikTok and a few other things.
- ▶ 5:04 Toni Cowan-Brown The Instagrammable version or the TikTok version.
- ▶ 11:04 Toni Cowan-Brown I saw this, I saw this, um, this morning, which was according to Deloitte, 60% of Gen Z and 56% of millennials will do at least some of their holiday shopping live on TikTok or Instagram or YouTube, which I thought was really interesting… 2 times in the scene
How many metaverses?
- ▶ 1:38 Benedict Evans They might mean something about TikTok.
- ▶ 8:26 Benedict Evans Yes, people spend two hours looking at TikTok.
- ▶ 11:16 Benedict Evans Um, that you kind of, people that, and yes, you know, you kind of can't imagine what the new forms will be, and we weren't expecting TikTok and Instagram on mobile, on desktop necessarily, um, but there is, you know, the other thing that…
- ▶ 26:48 Benedict Evans You don't, you don't want TikTok to have to work the way LinkedIn works. 3 times in the scene
Figma, unbundling and $20bn of antitrust
- ▶ 11:44 Toni Cowan-Brown I wonder, on a different tangent, if we're going to see the same with Be Real, the French company that's, you know, that's offering these, like, pictures of, take a picture of your face whilst you're taking a picture of what's behind the… 4 times in the scene
TV after software
- ▶ 22:38 Toni Cowan-Brown And for TikTok in that, which is picking up like how people, which books people pick up and which music people listen to. 2 times in the scene
- ▶ 26:54 Benedict Evans You know, when they build text recognition into the camera app, they're not thinking about what that's going to do to customer acquisition for a book publisher or how that's, neither is really is anybody at TikTok, except, you know,… 3 times in the scene
Lighting and tech diffusion
- ▶ 24:08 Benedict Evans And, or indeed, Facebook or TikTok and, you know,
Remember AI?
- ▶ 12:37 Toni Cowan-Brown Um, I feel like someone on TikTok, the TikTok algorithm that taught me how to pronounce Sheehan.
What's next for advertising?
- ▶ 0:57 Toni Cowan-Brown We always bring up, well, we're bringing up more and more TikTok.
- ▶ 11:31 Toni Cowan-Brown Snapchat, which I don't know as much about, or TikTok, which is going back to the traditional model of advertising, which is just good old brand advertising, but done in a more creative way. 4 times in the scene
- ▶ 21:18 Toni Cowan-Brown It really does remind me of the early days of TikTok, of trying to explain to people, no, no, no, no, it's learning from what you are engaging with.
- ▶ 22:15 Benedict Evans But that's also what TikTok, in a sense, when we were talking the other day about Shein TikTok intersections, 4 times in the scene
Shein, TikTok and Netflix - thinking about limits
- ▶ 3:48 Benedict Evans TikTok actually had, like, a name that you don't, that's easy for foreigners to pronounce, but Shein, S-H-E-I-N, I'm pretty sure it's pronounced Shein. 4 times in the scene
- ▶ 13:44 Toni Cowan-Brown Your TikTok app is every day.
- ▶ 14:27 Benedict Evans The second part is that one, one of the tabs in the app is basically looks like a combination of TikTok and Instagram, and it's lots of pictures, pictures you usually see from customers talking about their product. 6 times in the scene
- ▶ 17:08 Toni Cowan-Brown It was interesting thinking about, like, would Shein have been as successful as it is in moving the amount of inventory that it's moving and in getting, you know, the purchasing trends right without the help of TikTok? 9 times in the scene
- ▶ 24:41 Benedict Evans Um, and for Shein, for the, for, well, for TikTok or Instagram, it's all the users collectively clicking like, or tapping like, or swiping up and down. 5 times in the scene
- ▶ 27:46 Benedict Evans So if it goes into, um, TikTok hashtags, Sheehan Hall has 5.3 billion views, which it sounds like a lot to me. 3 times in the scene
- ▶ 33:02 Benedict Evans It's like, it's like your TikTok. 3 times in the scene
Metaverse - how to be wrong in the right way
- ▶ 13:34 Benedict Evans They all have the network, you know, they have connectivity, and they all kind of want to press it, so it was easier to press the home button and go to another app than to navigate the hamburger menu and to kind of swipe around to find…
- ▶ 22:02 Benedict Evans Apple just has a multi-touch API, and you can build whatever you want, and Tinder and, um, TikTok both, not TikTok, yeah, Tinder and TikTok both do that, but it's not like TikTok had to lobby a committee to persuade people to do a vertical… 3 times in the scene
- ▶ 30:08 Benedict Evans TikTok, for example, you know, Tinder, and you know, it'd be kind of clunky to try and do that.
Stories in the noise
- ▶ 14:12 Benedict Evans The, um, the TikTok, and like, there's like these terms, and what's the other one where you kind of, um, you sort of sandwich one story with another and you flip back and forth?
Netflix isn't a tech company
- ▶ 39:38 Benedict Evans And, and, and is your biggest competitor Disney Plus or TikTok?
The future of Twitter
- ▶ 2:56 Benedict Evans You are all in on TikTok though.
- ▶ 7:09 Toni Cowan-Brown You just take it from Twitter, which is interesting because I was looking at what's the value of my users on TikTok or on Instagram versus Twitter, and it does feel like there is more value of those users on different platforms, social…
- ▶ 16:59 Benedict Evans There's a lot of cultural things in there, but there's also, I think, this existential what are we, what is this, how does this work question, which, as we're saying, is a harder question to answer than it is if you're Instagram and you've… 8 times in the scene
- ▶ 27:53 Toni Cowan-Brown I had this the other day on TikTok.
The Evolution of networks
- ▶ 6:56 Toni Cowan-Brown TikTok as well as you spend an enormous amount of time there.
- ▶ 16:16 Benedict Evans Or my, I should be able to connect my TikTok to my LinkedIn. 4 times in the scene
- ▶ 25:30 Benedict Evans But, you know, I mean, there's clearly, there's so many companies that are making a tool to make you, to make Instagrams and a tool to make TikToks that, to make that output a photo or a video that you then load into Instagram or TikTok. 3 times in the scene
- ▶ 28:32 Benedict Evans TikTok is why I mentioned stories, but Reels is, TikTok is also interesting because what, so Snap invents stories, and it turns out that stories are basically a new content type. 14 times in the scene
- ▶ 34:18 Toni Cowan-Brown It's the access barrier to entry is super low, same tools to everyone, but then it's what I find really interesting when everyone has the same tools, it's as interesting to see how everyone uses it and how creative people get with it,… 6 times in the scene
Ukraine
- ▶ 17:31 Benedict Evans Yeah, the, the interesting thing I thought was TikTok. 4 times in the scene
- ▶ 20:36 Toni Cowan-Brown Going back to the TikTok piece, it is interesting because I think we briefly mentioned about this in another episode of just like remembering that TikTok is one of the new social media apps that isn't, wasn't built in America for Americans… 4 times in the scene
The retail reset
- ▶ 8:56 Benedict Evans You know, you can start on the web, you can sell, you can start with Shopify, you can start with Instagram and TikTok.
- ▶ 15:51 Toni Cowan-Brown But my TikTok page used to be full of Shein type marketing, which is basically whether it's influencer marketing, but they, it was there every day. 4 times in the scene
Asking the dumb questions
- ▶ 13:06 Benedict Evans It's actually Apple and TikTok between them. 2 times in the scene
- ▶ 24:35 Toni Cowan-Brown And we think of the likes of even tick tock, but you know, the likes of Netflix. 2 times in the scene
How to think about tech
- ▶ 14:00 Benedict Evans And, um, the app incorporates a lot of Instagram and TikTok in the sense there's a lot of UGC in it. 5 times in the scene
- ▶ 15:33 Benedict Evans It's also, of course, Shein only exists because TikTok and Instagram came first. 5 times in the scene
- ▶ 18:20 Benedict Evans Yeah, and you got that with TikTok, and you got that exactly to your point with Shin, and suddenly you see it on the App Store chart, and you're like, what is that thing there, and why is it a bit, why is it ahead of Amazon in the App…
- ▶ 20:14 Benedict Evans But, okay, if we've now worked out a way that people might actually pay for music, and then you add Peloton, never mind what happened this weekend, but you add Peloton this week, you add Peloton, and you add TikTok, and then you add the…
- ▶ 34:52 Benedict Evans What do I think about Instagram and TikTok?
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