Jan 2, 2019 · 32m · a16z
a16z Podcast | The Law (and Tech) of Warfare
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gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions
In this episode of the a16z Podcast, hosts Sonal Chokshi and Hannah interview Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes about the intersection of law, technology, cybersecurity, and modern warfare, while also exploring expert journalism and evolving geopolitical frameworks.
How this conversation actually went
Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. The host holds 18.3% of the talking time here. How this is scored →
The host as informed peer 3.3 Guest teaching 4.7 Guest disagreement 1.3 The host pushing back 1.8
speaking balance: gold is the host, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 19:24 Guest rejects tech-centric premise on encryption backdoors
Wittes firmly pushes back against Sonal's assertion that backdoors are simply a violation of math, arguing that tech observers must stop claiming the law enforcement side just doesn't get it.
Hardest push from the host ▶ 18:49 Host challenges guest's political framing of encryptionSonal directly confronts Wittes for reducing the encryption debate to policy and politics while omitting the mathematical and technical impossibilities of creating secure backdoors.
Biggest teaching moment ▶ 4:42 Guest explains FISA court history and jurisdiction expansionWittes provides a detailed historical breakdown of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, detailing how the 1995 Aldrich Ames case prompted quiet congressional expansion from wiretaps into physical searches.
The host holds their own ▶ 12:14 Host asserts editorial expertise on expert publishing modelsSonal draws on her experience as a former Wired editor to argue that traditional media dilutes specialized expertise, positioning Lawfare's first-person expert model as a necessary solution.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
| Chapter | Topic | The host as informed peer | Guest teaching | Guest disagreement | The host pushing back | Why |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Lawfare's Origins and National Security Law | 3 | 5 | 1 | 1 | Wittes walks through the origins of Lawfare and the specialized history of the FISA Court expanding into physical searches after the Aldrich Ames spy case. Sonal demonstrates moderate domain context by offering a point of contrast regarding domestic law enforcement search standards. | |
| Media Evolution, Expert Blogging, and Nonpartisan Analysis | 5 | 4 | 1 | 2 | Sonal demonstrates editorial expertise by articulating a thesis on how traditional media dilutes specialized knowledge through third-person framing and references editing Nicholas Weaver at Wired. Wittes outlines the progression of major national security policy eras from Guantanamo to drones and encryption. | |
| Cybersecurity and Political Polarization | 6 | 6 | 4 | 6 | Sonal directly challenges Wittes for framing the encryption debate purely around policy while ignoring mathematical realities regarding backdoors. Wittes counters by rejecting the premise that law enforcement simply doesn't understand the tech, urging tech observers to acknowledge the operational reality of dark devices. | |
| Immigration Policy and Distinction in Counter-Terrorism | 3 | 6 | 1 | 1 | Wittes explains complex concepts regarding military distinction in targeting, scalable remote violence like sextortion, and the shifting locus of governance from physical states to cloud providers like Gmail. The hosts ask clarifying questions and allow Wittes to lead the conceptual narrative. | |
| Redefining Political Spectrums and Foreign Adversaries | 2 | 5 | 1 | 1 | Wittes proposes alternative analytical frameworks to replace the traditional left-right spectrum, focusing on elites versus mass movements and views on foreign influence. Sonal prompts the topics and concurs with the analytical framing. | |
| Handmaiden of Power Origin and Episode Conclusion | 1 | 2 | 0 | 0 | Wittes shares a lighthearted anecdote about Glenn Greenwald labeling him a handmaiden of power and discusses commuting by Segway. The exchange is purely conversational banter to close the episode. |
Statements from this episode (13)
Chokshi: Mainstream media dilutes expertise by relying on third-person reporting
“Media dilutes expertise with third party, third person voice. Yeah. There should always be first person voice for experts.”
Wittes: Academic blogs fail because they lack journalistic editing sensibilities
“Part of the problem is that the blogs, generally speaking, that try to give voice to academics are generally not run by journalists, and so they don't have a journalistic sensibility in terms of what they're pushing people to do.”
Wittes: Cybersecurity became a partisan political issue in the US
“We have over the last year accidentally created a partisan issue out of cybersecurity.”
Wittes: Partisanship will severely hinder US federal cybersecurity policy
“I worry that that is a, is going to make a lot of cybersecurity questions much, much more difficult as a policy matter to address, at least at the federal level.”
Wittes: Unopenable encrypted phones will eventually spark a legislative crisis
“More and more and more phones are showing up in law enforcement un openable. And this is affecting more and more law enforcement agencies more and more often, and we're having no debate about it. And the problem with that is then one big thing will happen, and…”
Wittes: Apple will lose encryption standoff in court, forcing Congressional compromise
“If they lose, I think they'll lose in litigation, not in legislation. The scenario in which Apple loses, or some other provider loses, is that they lose in litigation and then they have to go to Congress In order to change the legislative landscape to undo wha…”
Wittes: Terrorism victims generally share ethnicity and religion with their perpetrators
“Generally speaking, the victims of terrorists have the same ethnicities and religious backgrounds as the terrorists who kill them,”
Wittes: Indiscriminate counter-terrorism policies risk re-injuring victims of terrorism
“If you don't do a good job of being discriminating you're very, very likely to be re-injuring victims of terrorism.”
Wittes: Digital technology makes sexual violence scalable for the first time
“And so this is in a Silicon Valley sense, the first time sexual violence has ever been scalable. We have perps that are doing You know, thousands of victims all over the world.”
Wittes: Brookings study identified up to 6,000 victims in 80 sextortion cases
“So we actually did, I, about a year ago, published a study, a Brookings study, of ADs extortion cases, and they accounted for A minimum of 1300 victims, and I think more, probably more like 6000 victims.”
Wittes: Tech platforms replaced governments as primary defenders against digital threats
“You don't look to the government, you look to the provider of your spam filter. You're vulnerable to individuals that you never imagined yourself to be vulnerable to, and you look to A very different model of defense than you, than we all grow up in sort of ci…”
Wittes: Elite versus mass movement axis explains politics better than left-right
“It's the spectrum I think about. It's an imperfect Understanding of it, to be sure, but I think it works much better than a left-right axis.”
Wittes: US confrontation with Russia will dominate foreign policy for years
“Adversary foreign power. Don't confuse it with anything else. It is led by a person who does not have the United States' best interests at heart, and who wants to reestablish hegemony over a region that involves a lot of countries that don't want to be subject…”