Jan 2, 2019 · 30m · a16z
a16z Podcast | Making a (Really) Wild Geo-Engineering Idea Real
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gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions
In this episode of the a16z podcast, author Ross Anderson discusses the radical proposal of Pleistocene Park, exploring how genetic engineering, mammoth rewilding, and grassland restoration in Siberia could prevent Arctic permafrost thaw and combat global climate change.
How this conversation actually went
Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. The host holds 44.9% of the talking time here. How this is scored →
The host as informed peer 5.6 Guest teaching 4.6 Guest disagreement 1.3 The host pushing back 2.6
speaking balance: gold is the host, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 14:46 Reframing 'playing God'
Ross rejects Sonal's critique that editing mammoths is playing God, countering that human destruction of 95% of megafauna was a far greater intervention.
Hardest push from the host ▶ 14:20 Challenging bio-engineering ethicsSonal challenges the premise of resurrecting mammoths without mothering or culture, characterizing the scientific effort as making a Gollum and playing God.
Biggest teaching moment ▶ 4:07 Tractors vs mammoths carbon mathRoss corrects Sonal's suggestion that humans could mechanically clear Arctic trees, pointing out that operating heavy tractors across the region would generate immense carbon emissions.
The host holds their own ▶ 11:31 Detailed breakdown of CRISPR editsSonal demonstrates thorough research by itemizing the specific traits being edited, including ear size reduction, fat insulation, and cold-resistant hemoglobin.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
| Chapter | Topic | The host as informed peer | Guest teaching | Guest disagreement | The host pushing back | Why |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| How Grasslands and Mammoths Protect Permafrost | 5 | 5 | 1 | 4 | Sonal asks direct questions about the mechanism of permafrost preservation and quotes Ross's article directly. She pushes back on the necessity of mammoths by asking why humans cannot simply clear trees with machinery, leading Ross to explain the carbon footprint of mechanized tree removal. | |
| Human Megafauna Extinction and Co-Evolution | 6 | 5 | 1 | 2 | Sonal demonstrates preparation by bringing up Yuval Harari's Sapiens and human hunting impact on megafauna. Ross adds depth by explaining paleontology consensus shifts and the naive prey evolutionary hypothesis in contrast to African megafauna co-evolution. | |
| Genetic Engineering and Resurrecting the Mammoth | 7 | 5 | 1 | 3 | Sonal lists specific genetic modifications mentioned in the article, such as shrinking ears and cold-resistant hemoglobin. Ross clarifies that the project creates a modified Asian elephant rather than an exact ancient mammoth, addressing DNA decay limitations. | |
| Ethics, Artificial Wombs, and Technical Challenges | 6 | 5 | 3 | 5 | Sonal challenges the ethics of bio-engineering mammoths without social culture, comparing it to making a Gollum or playing God. Ross counters her framing by noting that wiping out 95% of earth's megafauna was already playing God on a massive scale. | |
| Deep Time, Grass Biomes, and Solastalgia | 5 | 4 | 1 | 1 | Sonal compliments Ross's writing and connects concepts to Stewart Brand and long-timescale history. Ross explains the evolutionary mechanics of grass biomes and their symbiotic relationship with grazing animals. | |
| On-the-Ground Realities and Socioeconomic Factors | 5 | 4 | 1 | 2 | Sonal shares a personal anecdote about dinosaur egg sites in India to highlight local socioeconomic factors in conservation. Ross describes practical field realities, such as maintaining relations with local authorities and communities around Pleistocene Park. | |
| Narrative, Marketing, and Realizing Radical Ideas | 5 | 4 | 1 | 1 | Sonal draws parallels between science communication narrative techniques and Elon Musk's public positioning strategy. Ross details the role of narrative and timing in advancing radical scientific ideas. |
Statements from this episode (10)
Arctic permafrost holds more carbon than the entire US carbon output
“That part of the world was so rich in Grass and in large animals at that time, it's got lots of sort of organic matter, which has lots of carbon in it, in fact, more than like the entire output of the United States right now.”
Grasslands keep the ground colder by reflecting more sunlight than forests
“What's neat about grasslands is they actually keep the earth underneath them colder. First of all, they reflect away more sunlight than the darker kind of tree regions.”
Pleistocene Park researchers use a Russian military vehicle to knock down trees
“In the absence of mammoths, they've just had, like, a huge Russian military transporter out on the plains that they're literally just, like, slamming into trees with.”
Ice Age megafauna survived 30 interglacial warming cycles before their extinction
“Glaciations, like the ice age, was not three million years of glacial cold. It was like 10,000 year bursts of glacial cold, and then interglacials, they're called, where things would warm again. And these animals had weathered like 30 of those.”
African megafauna survived human expansion by co-evolving alongside humans
“One of the running hypotheses is that the megafauna of other continents were what's called naive prey, because like humans show up, harmless little thing, whereas in Africa, they, the megafauna there had grown up Alongside us, evolutionarily.”
George Church's minimal gene-editing strategy is the right approach to de-extinction
“He has the right approach, which is to make, like, again, as few tweaks to this genome as possible, just so you get these basic features, and then let nature do the rest.”
Scientists have sequenced the entire woolly mammoth genome using ancient DNA
“We have used several DNA fragments to sequence like the entire woolly mammoth genome.”
Animal suffering in early mammoth generations is justified by rewilding benefits
“My view is that it's worth what will probably be some considerable suffering on the part of those, the first few, if not more, generations of these mammoths, and like, I am alive to that, and I actually try to talk about, in particular, the social suffering.”
Growing a mammoth in an artificial womb is over a decade away
“And it's, you know, 200 pounds at the end of it, and you're going to do all that like really complex fine-tuning, maternal fine-tuning, like hormonal work, In this huge closet-sized tank, like, that is, that's more than 10 years away.”
Elon Musk's genuine sincerity drives his ability to fund radical ideas
“Yeah, like, he's really good at packaging crazy sounding ideas and, like, Getting lots of governments, investors to throw lots of money into them, and while managing to keep control of them. Part of that is the narrative, right? He does hook it into, like, lar…”