Jan 2, 2019 · 38m · a16z
a16z Podcast | Exploding the Map
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gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions
In this episode of the a16z Podcast, host Hannah discussions the evolution of cartography with experts David Rumsey and Wei Lowe, exploring how mapmaking has shifted from historical paper artifacts to high-definition, real-time spatial networks engineered for autonomous vehicles and smart cities.
How this conversation actually went
Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. How this is scored →
The host as informed peer 3.4 Guest teaching 3.5 Guest disagreement 0.3 The host pushing back 0.3
speaking balance: gold is the host, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 21:53 Dismissal of real-time deer alerts
Wei politely rejects Hannah's premise that a deer running across the road represents valuable real-time data to share across the vehicle network.
Hardest push from the host ▶ 15:48 Challenging visual-only navigationHannah pushes back on basic visual mapping by asking why autonomous cars cannot rely on visual cameras alone without additional sensor layers.
Biggest teaching moment ▶ 12:54 Reframing cartographic history comprehensivenessDavid corrects Hannah's assumption that historical maps were simplified one-dimensional representations, pointing to the 1570 Ortelius atlas to show early maps always aimed for total world comprehensiveness.
The host holds their own ▶ 34:23 Referencing the Princeton Barrington AtlasHannah establishes her subject-matter authority by citing her work as an art book publisher at Princeton on the Barrington Atlas to illustrate historical map perspective.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
| Chapter | Topic | The host as informed peer | Guest teaching | Guest disagreement | The host pushing back | Why |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Traditional Surveying vs. Modern Digital Map Creation | 3 | 3 | 1 | 1 | Hannah draws comparisons between historical surveying tools and modern static mapping fleets, introducing the metaphor of sending out a pioneer. Wei explains how present-day digital maps rely on centralized survey fleets like Google rather than continuous crowdsourcing. | |
| The Democratization of Maps and Human-Centric Design | 4 | 3 | 0 | 0 | Hannah synthesizes historical map democratization with modern human-centric navigation constraints. Wei and David explain printing history and contrast human-interpreted maps with maps designed specifically for robotic consumption. | |
| Defining High-Definition (HD) Maps for Autonomous Systems | 3 | 4 | 0 | 0 | Hannah prompts the guests on exact technical requirements for autonomous navigation, suggesting real-world edge cases like avoiding wildlife. David introduces the literary concept of Borges' 1-to-1 map to describe HD mapping precision. | |
| Expanding Map Dimensions and Terra Incognita | 3 | 5 | 1 | 1 | Hannah posits that early maps condensed reality into single dimensions, but David gently reframes her premise by explaining that historical atlases like Ortelius's 1570 work strove for comprehensive world mapping. | |
| Sensor Fusion and Real-Time Data Bubbles in Autonomous Driving | 4 | 3 | 0 | 0 | Hannah questions why visual cameras alone are insufficient for autonomous driving, prompting Wei to explain laser depth measurement in LiDAR. Hannah distills this technical explanation into the concept of a real-time map-making bubble. | |
| Open Data Sharing vs. Proprietary Cartographic History | 2 | 4 | 0 | 0 | David provides historical background on how open map distribution by the British outcompeted Spain's secret proprietary map policy. Hannah primarily acts as an attentive listener and prompter. | |
| Real-Time Maintenance and Crowdsourced Map Aggregation | 3 | 3 | 1 | 1 | Hannah pushes on fast-moving incidents like a deer running across the road, but Wei politely dismisses the idea of broadcasting fleeting animal sightings in real time compared to lasting hazards like spilled cargo. | |
| Cloud Infrastructure, Edge Computing, and Software Architecture | 4 | 3 | 0 | 0 | Hannah probes the division between decision-making systems and map data, coining the idea of a shadow map representing historical expectations. Wei outlines the four main functional modules of autonomous vehicle software. | |
| Visualizing HD Maps for Human Operators vs. Robotic APIs | 3 | 3 | 0 | 0 | Hannah asks about visual aesthetics in mapping and references complex road networks like dysfunction junctions. Wei clarifies that HD map graphics are designed for human operator QA rather than robotic perception. | |
| Regulatory, Privacy, and Data Ownership Challenges | 3 | 4 | 0 | 0 | Hannah guides the discussion into territorial regulations and data ownership. David highlights historical map seizure during warfare, while Wei details strict international laws against exporting geospatial data. | |
| HD Map Data as Living Historical Records | 5 | 3 | 0 | 0 | Hannah demonstrates strong personal domain expertise by sharing her background as an art book publisher at Princeton working on the Barrington Atlas. Wei admits that historical preservation was not initially on his radar until discussing it with David. |
Statements from this episode (23)
David Rumsey: Sextants were the LIDAR of their day
“I never referred to sextants as primitive. They were, you know, the LIDAR of the day. I mean, sextants opened up the whole world and created the ability to make scale maps and to map essentially beyond where you were.”
David Rumsey: The 1492 Earth Apple globe omits the Americas
“One of our favorite globes is the, it's called the Earth Apple, which was by Martin Behame, the year Columbus discovered America and there's no North and South America on the globe.”
Wei Lowe: Cartography has always driven technical and mathematical innovation
“Mapping has always been almost the frontier of technology. People who can make really good maps for that time tend to be the most technically advanced and mathematically advanced.”
Wei Lowe: Consumer digital maps rely on survey fleets, not crowdsourcing
“Those maps were not created from The GPS unit that you have on your car or the camera system that you have in your car and whatnot. They were created by special, what we call mapping survey fleets.”
David Rumsey: Digital maps differ from paper maps by having dynamic scale
“One thing that has changed drastically from paper maps is that maps are dynamic now. Maps are changing. You know, with paper maps, we have a sense of scale. The scale is printed onto the map and it's fixed. But with digital maps, the scale is totally fluid and…”
David Rumsey: Early woodblock printing limited map production to 100 impressions
“So the first maps were done with woodblock. You could only get, you know, a hundred good impressions.”
David Rumsey: Increased access is cartography's most profound historical shift
“It's the access has been the most profound change. The actual depiction of space, I think, or the goal to depict space has been Remarkably consistent.”
Wei Lowe: Modern digital maps are built exclusively for human consumption
“But if you actually dive deeper, maps today, including the digital maps, are actually built for human consumption only.”
Wei Lowe: HD maps for autonomous vehicles require centimeter-level accuracy
“The maps that are purposely built for self-driving purpose are usually called high definition maps or high or HD map for short. This specifically referred to the maps that have extremely high precision. And we're talking about centimeter level accuracy or prec…”
David Rumsey: HD mapping is a 1:1 scale map systems roll through
“HD mapping is a one-to-one mapping, and yet we don't unroll it. We roll through it.”
David Rumsey: Abraham Ortelius published the first world atlas in 1570
“The first atlas was published in 1570 by Abraham Ortelius, and It was actually the best-selling book in Europe for years and years and years, and the reason it was so important to people was there were maps of the entire world in the book.”
Wei Lowe: Cameras alone cannot provide high-precision depth perception for AVs
“When you're talking about extreme high precision measurement cameras oftentimes is just not enough. And the lasers gives you a precise measurement of depth or distance in the three D space.”
David Rumsey: Open content has historically been a successful mapping business model
“The whole notion of open content goes back a long time as being a very successful business model in the mapping world.”
David Rumsey: Holding map data tightly yields less long-term value than sharing
“Generally those who hold information really tight It may have short-term value, but long-term, it does not have nearly as much value as sharing.”
Wei Lowe: HD map quality scales with aggregated fleet data
“The more cars you have on the road, or the more data that we collect from, the higher quality the map will be.”
Wei Lowe: Cellular bandwidth costs constrain real-time HD mapping
“Cost is definitely a big challenge because you don't want to send tons and tons of data over cellular network.”
Wei Lowe: Cloud infrastructure handles 99% of HD map computation
“Of course, it's the automated storage place, and it's also the place where 99% of the computation is done for map creation and map updates.”
Wei Lowe: Autonomous robots consume spatial map data through APIs, not visuals
“Robots don't really need to see anything. They need to consume the data and they consume the data through APIs and so on.”
Wei Lowe: China and South Korea explicitly forbid exporting geospatial mapping data
“There are countries who heavily, heavily regulate their geospatial data. You know, China is one, South Korea is one. There's actually a whole bunch of other countries who... Explicitly Forbid exporting geospatial data. You cannot move data out of South Korea a…”
Wei Lowe: Almost every US city maintains a GIS department
“Almost every city in the U.S. Has a GIS department.”
David Rumsey: OCR cannot be performed on historical paper maps
“Optical character recognition in old maps, but it's impossible to do because the text is going up and down and they're different fonts and they're artistically.”
David Rumsey: HD mapping achieves cartography's holy grail of living maps
“Opening up a whole new frontier of mapping that is mapping at a very, very high definitional level, which creates a whole new kind of map. When you map at that level of accuracy, you are making a living map, a map that is full of so much information that we've…”