Jan 2, 2019 · 37m · a16z
a16z Podcast | Ancient Dreams of Technology, Gods & Robots
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gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions
In this episode of the a16z podcast, host Hannah speaks with historian of science Adrienne Mayer about her book 'Gods and Robots,' exploring how ancient Greek myths and classical mechanical inventions prefigured modern artificial intelligence, robotics, and cybernetic ethics.
How this conversation actually went
Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. How this is scored →
The host as informed peer 2.6 Guest teaching 3.0 Guest disagreement 0.1 The host pushing back 0.1
speaking balance: gold is the host, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 2:20 Dismissing conventional academic views on ancient technology
The conversation is highly collaborative throughout, but here the guest pushes back against traditional academic philosophers of science who doubted ancient Greeks could imagine automatons before technology existed.
Hardest push from the host ▶ 4:40 Host pressing for clarification on technology definitionHost asks the guest to clarify whether technology strictly means the physical tools used to manufacture objects.
Biggest teaching moment ▶ 30:53 Historical account of King Nabis's robotic ApegaGuest educates the host on a little-known historical example of an ancient mechanical torture robot disguised as the queen.
The host holds their own ▶ 17:12 Host framing Medea's strategy as ancient hackingHost offers an insightful reframe comparing Medea's manipulation of automaton programming to modern hacking, which the guest enthusiastically embraces.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
| Chapter | Topic | The host as informed peer | Guest teaching | Guest disagreement | The host pushing back | Why |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Defining Technology, Automatons, and Ancient Biotechnē Concepts | 2 | 4 | 1 | 1 | Host asks basic definition questions to set up the conversation scope. Guest clarifies technology concepts and introduces ancient biotechnē concepts. | |
| The Legend of Talos, the First Bronze Robot | 2 | 3 | 0 | 0 | Host prompts for details on the legend of Talos. Guest narrates Talos's design, power source, and Medea's trick. | |
| Anthropomorphism, Sentience, and Psychological Anxieties of Automation | 3 | 2 | 0 | 0 | Host connects ancient anxieties regarding sentience and command with modern AI debates. Guest adds historical context about ancient empathy for robots. | |
| Automaton Armies and Hacking Ancient Technology Systems | 4 | 2 | 0 | 0 | Host synthesizes Medea's trick as modern hacking, which the guest enthusiastically adopts and praises. | |
| Hephaestus's Androids, Drones, and the Creation of Pandora | 3 | 3 | 0 | 0 | Guest lists Hephaestus's android creations and Pandora. Host synthesizes golden female androids as early AI concepts. | |
| Promethean Foresight versus Epimethean Short-Term Thinking in AI Ethics | 2 | 3 | 0 | 0 | Guest explains Promethean foresight versus Epimethean hindsight in the context of AI ethics. | |
| Philosophical Perspectives: Aristotle on Automation, Labor, and Autocracy | 3 | 3 | 0 | 0 | Host explicitly prompts about Aristotle's economic views on automation. Guest elaborates on Aristotle's thought experiment regarding labor and autocracy. | |
| Historical Realities of Ancient Automatons and Technological Innovations | 2 | 4 | 0 | 0 | Guest shares historical accounts of real ancient automatons, including Archytas's flying dove and King Nabis's robotic Apega. |
Statements from this episode (14)
Mayer: Ancient myths and legends contain embedded scientific and natural knowledge
“There's a lot of natural knowledge, and even scientific folk knowledge, if you will, embedded in mythology, and all of my projects have been investigations into finding what's real in myths and legends and antiquity.”
Mayer: Ancient mythology was humanity's first science fiction
“You could call ancient mythology cultural dreams or ancient thought experiments. They're basically the very first science fictions before science.”
Mayer: Biological reproduction versus fabrication defines human and artificial distinction
“That is a critical distinction in antiquity and now, if something is manufactured or fabricated and not reproduced biologically. That is the dividing line between real and natural, human and non-human beings. Animate and inanimate.”
'Biotechnology' derives from the ancient Greek concept of 'life through craft'
“Made by a process that the Greeks would call biotechnē, which means life through craft, and it is the root of our word biotechnology.”
Mayer: Greek vase paintings from 450 B.C. show tools used on Talos
“There are at least two ancient vase paintings from about four 50 B.C. That show Jason and Medea using a tool To release that bolt on his ankle.”
Mayer: Ancient Greek art depicts the mythical bronze robot Talos crying
“There are some ancient vase paintings that show Talos being destroyed, and he's falling backwards, and you can see the rivets and the seams of this bronze giant, and yet there is a tear Falling from his eye.”
Mayer: Medea from Greek mythology was history's first hacker
“By thinking about the programming and the systems of these inventions of the god Hephaestus, and she's able to destroy them by using their technology, turning their technology against them, so you could call her the first hacker.”
Mayer: Homer's golden servants are Western literature's first AI entities
“So essentially they are the first AI entities in Western literature, and it was Homer who describes these.”
Mayer: Tech Developers Favor Epimethean Short-Term Gains Over AI Foresight
“Basically, what's really important today is whether one is going to be a Promethean or an Epimethean. When considering AI and advances in technology, foresight is really important, but we tend to be more like Epimetheus and going for the short-term gates.”
Aristotle theorized that automation could eliminate the need for slavery
“In one remarkable passage, Aristotle starts to muse on the old myths of Hephaestus, making these golden women to help him in his shop, and the traveling carts that Fed the gods and then returned, and a bank of bellows for his forge that actually could adjust t…”
Ancient tyrants sought automatons specifically to amplify their power
“In both myth and historical times in antiquity, it's tyrants, autocrats, who are really interested in deploying Automatons. It's a way to amplify your power”
Mayer: DARPA developed an AI soldier exoskeleton named TALOS
“DARPA is currently working on an automated exoskeleton that will have AI capabilities for soldiers, and they deliberately came up with the acronym TALOS.”
The world's first flying automaton was a 4th-century BC mechanical dove
“The very first automaton that could fly was created by a friend of Plato named Architas. He was just a polymath, a brilliant inventor, engineer, and a general, and he created an artificial bird In the shape of a dove that could fly several yards.”