Apr 1, 2019 · 1h 6m · a16z
a16z Podcast | For the Billions of Creatives Out There
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gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions
In this special crossover episode of the a16z Podcast, host Sonal Chokshi and Andreessen Horowitz co-founder Mark Andreessen interview writer, director, and showrunner Brian Koppelman about the creative process, the mechanics of TV showrunning, and the intersection of art and business. Koppelman shares insights on daily writing rituals, maintaining creative control, managing equal long-term partnerships, and crafting complex television series like 'Billions'.
How this conversation actually went
Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. The host holds 11.1% of the talking time here. How this is scored →
The host as informed peer 3.3 Guest teaching 3.5 Guest disagreement 1.8 The host pushing back 1.9
speaking balance: gold is the host, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 7:34 Brian rejects Samuel Johnson adage
When Marc brings up the adage that professional writers shouldn't write on spec or for free, Brian directly reframes the premise and asserts that the expected value of doing nothing is zero.
Hardest push from the host ▶ 53:30 Marc pushes back on meditationMarc forcefully rejects the premise of meditation for himself, labeling himself 'Mr. Anti-meditation' and asserting he cannot sit still with his own thoughts for even 30 seconds.
Biggest teaching moment ▶ 7:51 Brian reframes expected value of creative workBrian explains to Marc how expected value applies to uncompensated creative work, demonstrating that writing on spec creates latent option value whereas inaction guarantees zero return.
The host holds their own ▶ 23:08 Marc uses Larry Sanders to explain managing executive notesMarc demonstrates domain insight by using Rip Torn's character Artie from 'The Larry Sanders Show' to illustrate how creators can acknowledge executive feedback without destroying their work.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
| Chapter | Topic | The host as informed peer | Guest teaching | Guest disagreement | The host pushing back | Why |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Writing 'Rounders' on Spec and Preserving Creative Autonomy | 2 | 3 | 1 | 1 | Marc initiates with an overview comparing Silicon Valley to Hollywood creative expression and prompts Brian on his early project Rounders. Brian explains the early spec-writing process and low odds of success without friction. | |
| Creative Responsibility, EV, and Overcoming the Toxicity of Blocked Ambition | 3 | 6 | 4 | 4 | Marc pushes back using the conventional wisdom that writers shouldn't write for free, comparing it to doctors or pilots. Brian directly disagrees with the quote, reframing the concept of Expected Value (EV) by pointing out that the EV of not writing is zero. | |
| Daily Morning Rituals to Eliminate Writer's Block | 1 | 4 | 1 | 1 | Brian describes his daily routine, including morning pages and meditation, to eliminate writer's block. He shares how every Hollywood agency initially rejected Rounders before rushing to sign them after the sale. | |
| Speaking to Power, Managing Executive Notes, and Creative Ownership | 6 | 2 | 2 | 2 | Sonal asks about managing creative ownership when dealing with studio executives. Marc demonstrates expertise by invoking 'The Larry Sanders Show' and Rip Torn's character Artie to illustrate how to placate executives without ruining creative vision. | |
| Professional Rigor in Editing and Studio Trust on 'Billions' | 2 | 5 | 1 | 1 | Brian explains how turning in a tight 57-minute pilot cut instead of a bloated 67-minute cut built immediate trust with Showtime executives. Sonal and Marc listen attentively as Brian details professional discipline in editing. | |
| The Evolution of Showrunning and Collaborating with Visionary Directors | 5 | 3 | 1 | 2 | Marc shows good industry awareness by questioning the historical shift that allowed TV writers to become showrunners while movie directors traditionally held power. Brian explains the transition starting with Hill Street Blues. | |
| Structuring the 'Billions' Writer's Room and High-Level Expectations | 2 | 4 | 2 | 1 | Marc asks how Brian pitches high-level expectations to young writers in a room dominated by the showrunners' distinct voice. Brian outlines how talent is nurtured while maintaining strict major-league standards. | |
| Comparing Historical Mid-Budget Indie Films to Modern Television Pitching | 4 | 3 | 1 | 1 | Marc asks how a mid-budget indie movie like Rounders would be pitched or produced today. Brian compares it to Margin Call, explaining how mid-budget films have mostly migrated to TV or streaming platforms. | |
| The Peak TV Golden Age and Democratization of Visual Literature | 4 | 3 | 3 | 2 | Marc contrasts the collapse of the music industry during the internet boom with the unexpected creative renaissance in peak TV. Brian jokes about the French military response during WWII when comparing digital distribution missteps. | |
| Dynamics of a Two-Decade Equal Creative Partnership | 6 | 2 | 1 | 2 | Marc shares his framework for successful founder-CEO dynamics, arguing that both partners must prioritize letting the other make decisions rather than proving themselves right. Brian strongly agrees, citing his 20-year partnership with David Levine. | |
| Transcendental Meditation and Mental Clarity for High Performers | 2 | 5 | 3 | 5 | Marc playfully pushes back on meditation, calling himself 'Mr. Anti-meditation' and expressing disbelief at sitting still for 30 seconds. Brian educates him on Transcendental Meditation as a practical performance tool for high achievers. | |
| Character Crafting, Moral Testing, and Music Selection in 'Billions' | 2 | 2 | 1 | 1 | Sonal asks detailed questions about character development in Billions, specifically regarding Taylor Mason and Wendy Rhodes, as well as needle drops like Vince Staples. Brian explains character testing and music selection. |
Statements from this episode (23)
Koppelman: 'Rounders' failed at the box office despite long-term cult status
“Rounders was rejected, it was incredibly difficult, the movie wasn't a big box office hit, but 21 years later, people are in ferocious online arguments about the most microscopic moments in, in the film”
Koppelman: Creative work does not require abandoning your other identities
“One mistake I see people make when they decide they have to do some kind of artistic work is they think it means they have to grab that identity so hard that it has to shut out the rest of their identity. But what I found was you don't have to do that.”
Koppelman: Uncredited writers should write spec scripts to maintain creative leverage
“If someone's willing to pay you guys who have no credits, 5000 dollars now, write the thing, and you'll have a much better chance of success. And we've taken that lesson to heart still to this day to write unencumbered. We like to go in a room and let our idea…”
Koppelman: The expected value of unwritten creative ideas is zero
“The expected value of not doing the work is zero. Like there's no question about the EV of just thinking I'd like to write and not writing.”
Koppelman considers 'Solitary Man' to be the best film he ever made
“Solitary Man, which was a commercial failure. I mean, it made its money back, but it was not a big commercial success, but I know it's the best movie we ever made.”
Koppelman: Morning pages eliminate writer's block by creating momentum
“I meditate every morning, and I do morning pages every morning. So morning pages, like out of Julia Cameron's book, The Artist's Way, I do three longhand pages, a real brain dump, where I just Let the pen move for three pages, no matter what. And it has this i…”
Koppelman instructed his kids to burn his journals upon his death
“No, you burn, I, my, there, my kids have instructions to burn upon my desk.”
Koppelman: Every Hollywood agency initially rejected the 'Rounders' screenplay
“We were rejected by every single agency in Hollywood.”
Koppelman: Showrunners must manage studio relations like founders manage VCs
“I'll tell you, it's so analogous to the way a founder and Will work with the investors, right? The VC, the board. It, it's up to you to manage that relationship. It's up to you to set the terms.”
Koppelman: Speak to powerful executives without awe, condescension, or fear
“The main thing is, is don't treat them as the, most of the time, Don't treat them with a sense of awe, and that they're, like, their station makes them better than you, but also don't try to condescend to them as though you're the smartest person in the world,…”
Andreessen: Inexperienced founders handle feedback poorly by overreacting or getting defensive
“Typically we see this with young people a lot in here, which is like, you give somebody in your world, it's called a note in our world. It's like feedback or it's like, you know, here's an idea. And you give somebody an idea and like, they immediately get thei…”
Koppelman: Delivering overlong cuts invites executive interference
“What happens when you give the 67 minute thing is you're inviting a bunch of people to tell you how to get the thing to 57 or 58 minutes. And suddenly they're giving you their opinion on it. Also, by you not having to have rigorously With discipline, make thos…”
Koppelman: Achieving creative control requires taking responsibility for failure
“If you don't have control, you don't take the blame. So if you're comfortable, if you can find a way to be comfortable with failure, which as a writer you have to, or comfortable in your mistakes, then you can be comfortable in wanting to be the final voice on…”
Koppelman: Writer's rooms extend showrunners' worldviews
“Writer's rooms become extensions of the way the showrunners see the world, and the way they see the world of their shows.”
Koppelman: Showrunners edit every episode regardless of writing credit
“Almost all shows, the showrunner does the final pass on all the episodes, no matter whose name is going on.”
Koppelman: Mid-budget $14M-$30M films are much harder to make outside Netflix
“It's much harder to make those mid, mid, those sort of mid budget, 14 to 25 or thirty million dollar movies. Though Netflix does it, right? You can do it at Netflix now, which is probably where it would happen, but, and then, or you would try to tell the story…”
Koppelman: Pitching Rounders today would be a TV series, not a movie
“No, you would pitch the world of the underground card rooms for television, because I think a lot of that, that's where this stuff lives, and that would have been, I think, a fascinating thing to see also.”
Koppelman: Partnership success depends entirely on managing your own conduct
“The more you know that the success or failure of a partnership is based entirely on how you comport yourself, the better off that you'll be.”
Andreessen: Successful partnerships require deferring decision-making to your partner
“It has to be more important to each of you that the other one gets to make the decision than that you get to prove yourself right, and you have to both have that attitude.”
Koppelman: Creative partners should resolve major disagreements strictly in private
“If there's something that suddenly is going to, we see really differently, we just immediately take it to a private communication, right? We take the audience out of it, right? We never talked about this, but we just do it. We take the audience out of it, beca…”
Koppelman: High performers require enforced mental breaks to succeed
“It's not surprising to me that so many of us who are high achievers, aggressive in going after what we want, willing to take risks, That finding some tool that gives you some enforced break from that, it's not surprising to me that that then, when you then com…”
Koppelman: Every character in 'Billions' is written to be smarter than the writers
“You have to make these fictional characters feel incredibly real to you, and you want to write them smarter than you are, and that's the only thing I can say is we want every character in Billions to be smarter than we are.”