The Exchanges

Q money now. And, uh, you know, I spoke to Jeremy, he told me you haven't touched a dollar of your series A or your series B. Like, bluntly, You're not optimizing for growth, uh, is, is kind of what you, one would take away from this. Like, how do you feel about that growth versus profitability now? And now you have the leverage. Is now not the time to spend?

A Yeah. So I guess the one thing I'll call out is, uh, just because we haven't touched the series A money and the series B money, it doesn't mean that we sort of, um, behaved exactly the same, you know, had we not raised that money. Like, Having that cash cushion, I think allows us to be much, much more aggressive, uh, and, and make a very different set of decisions. And so, um, I think we've benefited a lot from the cash, even if we haven't touched it, because it's allowed us to like plan around that. Uh, not to mention as you know, Jeremy, Jeremy Levine and Sarah Tavel are, are incredible. Like they've been so instrumental at helping us figure out how to continue to scale the company, how to recruit the right people into the organization. And so it's not just the money you're getting, you're getting like, Uh, real expertise, and so I think we've benefited a lot from those raises, and I, and I feel really good about it, but, but to come back to your question about, you know, growth versus profitability, um, you know, the way I think about it is I want to grow as fast as, as humanly possible, uh, but I want to do it in a sustainable and healthy way, and, uh, I know that the markets kind of change, and sometimes that's a trendy thing to say, and sometimes it's not, and right now maybe it's a little trendy, but, but, you know, we've been doing it for, Years and years now. And I thi…

AI assessment note: “I want to grow as fast as, as humanly possible, uh, but I want to do it in a sustainable”

Q I do just want to touch on one background element. I always think that we're shaped a lot by our past experiences, and you obviously spent, you know, four years or close to four years at Google. I'm just fascinated. How did seeing the internal mechanics of Google, being there for four years, how did that shape your operating mindset and how you are as a leader today with Cambly?

A Yeah, absolutely. Uh, so I, I was really fortunate to get a job at Google straight out of college, and so it was my first job, and Um, I feel really lucky. I think Google is an, is an exceptional company. I think just getting to see how, how a really exceptional company was run, I think was, was very formative to me, especially early, that early on in my career. Uh, you know, concretely I learned things like how, how, you know, how to build a great software and to do it at scale, uh, which has served me really well. I was on like kind of a metrics and analytics team. And so I learned a lot about metrics and data. I learned a lot about how Google thinks about and approaches data. Um, And, uh, I think that helped me understand how to, how to make kind of the importance of, uh, data-driven decision-making. And, uh, that's something that served me super well.

AI assessment note: “helped me understand how to, how to make kind of the importance of, uh, data-driven decision-making.”

Q When you look back, what are some of the signs that an individual contributor is able to scale into a leader and a manager?

A Uh, I mean, I think for starters, like they have to have an interest in it and they have to want to do it. And so, um, that's really important. Uh, you know, I think, I think you can look for an aptitude and, uh, some, some sort of core skills as well. Uh, uh, you know, I, I think like the sort of the EQ side of things, like, are they, are they not just really smart, but they actually like understand people really well. I think that's, uh, what motivates people. Um, you know, how people approach, approach things, how people think about, uh, their careers. Uh, these are all the sorts of things that I look for to like, see if someone is going to become a good manager. I think self-awareness is also really important. Um, and, and humility is, is one where like, uh, I think being a manager can be a humbling experience. And, uh, I think if you, if, you know, I think a lot of us managers come in thinking like, oh, I've already liked You know, led a team before, like I've been a tech leader and this is for sure how I thought about it. Like how hard could, could management be? Uh, and then it's a bit of a rude awakening. And I think you have to be really open to that and open to learning. And so, uh, I think sort of a combo of humility and, and, uh, interest, uh, and ability to learn, I think are all, all, all factors that I look for.

AI assessment note: “a combo of humility and, and, uh, interest, uh, and ability to learn”

Q I'm sure a lot of founders ask you for advice, especially now. Um, how do you advise founders when it comes to capital efficiency, when it comes to fundraising, growth, spend, given your experience and perspective?

A Yeah, I, I always caveat that with this is my own, my own, uh, take and my own experience and you know, your, your mileage may vary. Uh, uh, I, you know, I think we've talked a little bit about how people were pretty skeptical about, um, the, the space that we're in. And, uh, so I kind of caveat it with, Hey, this is, this is my experience. Uh, uh, but, but I'm a big fan of, of being really lean and being really capital efficient in the early days and. Uh, figuring out how to get, uh, just really focusing on the core business, uh, and making it really strong and healthy and getting that early traction, uh, and kind of plotting a path for you to be able to, for the business to be able to stand on its own two feet. Uh, it just gives you so much optionality, uh, and. You know, again, from my personal experience when I've not done that, uh, it's been hard. Uh, and it was always, it wasn't always hard to predict. I mean, it wasn't always easy to predict either, right? Like I thought, Hey, the company's doing pretty well. Like we're a great team. Like we should be able to get, we should be able to do this next fundraise. And, and I've regretted, I think maybe that, uh, unchecked optimism. And so I often try to try to balance out founders who I think maybe, maybe come in with a similar sort of unbridled optimism, but Hey, Here's what some of the realities might look like. This might p…

AI assessment note: “I'm a big fan of of being really lean and being really capital efficient”

Q sustainable growth. I think, you know, I want, coming from the guy with the fedora, I want to talk about you, uh, and the different hats that you wear within the companies, because whenever I spoke to anyone, they all spoke about your skill here, and to dig in here, and so I wanted to start on performance. How do you define high performance in business today as a leader?

A I think about performance as, uh, sort of focus, uh, you know, results and driving for impact. Uh, and, uh, I think like, you know, in the early days, I used to think of that kind of, I think very much at the individual level, like, What are you personally doing to kind of drive an impact in the business? And then obviously as the organization is scaled, I think I've, I've really grown to appreciate, um, what, what great leadership looks like and how, and then the type of leverage that has, uh, on the business. And so how do you create an organization and an environment that, that drives towards impact? And, uh, and I think one of the things I've been thinking about even more recently is, you know, we've got a much larger company now, like how do you get Everyone across the company aligned and kind of running in the same direction. Uh, and so, uh, my, my performance, my, my definition of high performance, I think has evolved over time, but, but it started off with sort of individually, what are you doing? How, how, how much are you driving for results and impact? Uh, and then it's kind of grown and evolved into, uh, how you get your organization or whatever kind of whatever's under your purview, driving, driving in the right direction. And everyone on your team sort of pushing towards impact.

AI assessment note: “I think about performance as, uh, sort of focus, uh, you know, results”

Q I'm sure a lot of founders ask you for advice, especially now. Um, how do you advise founders when it comes to capital efficiency, when it comes to fundraising, growth, spend, given your experience and perspective?

A Yeah, I, I always caveat that with this is my own, my own, uh, take and my own experience and you know, your, your mileage may vary. Uh, uh, I, you know, I think we've talked a little bit about how people were pretty skeptical about, um, the, the space that we're in. And, uh, so I kind of caveat it with, Hey, this is, this is my experience. Uh, uh, but, but I'm a big fan of, of being really lean and being really capital efficient in the early days and. Uh, figuring out how to get, uh, just really focusing on the core business, uh, and making it really strong and healthy and getting that early traction, uh, and kind of plotting a path for you to be able to, for the business to be able to stand on its own two feet. Uh, it just gives you so much optionality, uh, and. You know, again, from my personal experience when I've not done that, uh, it's been hard. Uh, and it was always, it wasn't always hard to predict. I mean, it wasn't always easy to predict either, right? Like I thought, Hey, the company's doing pretty well. Like we're a great team. Like we should be able to get, we should be able to do this next fundraise. And, and I've regretted, I think maybe that, uh, unchecked optimism. And so I often try to try to balance out founders who I think maybe, maybe come in with a similar sort of unbridled optimism, but Hey, Here's what some of the realities might look like. This might p…

AI assessment note: “I'm a big fan of of being really lean and being really capital efficient”

Q A couple of things that always strike me when you grow a team quickly, like you are, how do you retain speed with increasing team size? So often you get bloat, you get processes. How do you think about retaining speed with scale of team?

A Yeah, that's a tough one. Uh, and something I've definitely like has, has been challenging. I don't know if I have a silver bullet, uh, for it, I think. Uh, when you're small, it's really easy to kind of know what everyone is doing. And so you can kind of almost personally, uh, make sure that like people are focused on the right things and you can get kind of give feedback in a one-on-one context. Uh, but as you grow, obviously that, that quickly breaks down. And so I think you have to introduce like a bit more, um, you know, process and organization around it. Uh, uh, Things like planning, things like setting goals, uh, being really deliberate about who owns what and like, uh, giving, giving folks across your org ownership over, you know, ownership autonomy over, um, going after certain goals. And so, uh, but, but it's a learning process. I think we're still figuring it out. And I think, Uh, it's, yeah, it's something that I think has, has been, has been challenging, and yeah, we're, we're, we're getting better at it every day.

AI assessment note: “Things like planning, things like setting goals, uh, being really deliberate about who owns what”

Q Would it have been different if you were a remote team, do you think?

A Uh, I think you can, you know, I, I, I'm a fan of, of in-person collaboration. Uh, and so I always bias a little that way. Uh, but, but I think you can do this stuff remote as well. Like, you know, I think another moment when, when we had a, I think a similar kind of conversation with the team, uh, when probably every company across the world was having this conversation was when, when the pandemic hit. Uh, and again, we kind of, I think I, I looked a lot on the conversations we had during that attempted series A process and tried to say, okay, The best thing to do for the company, for the team is to, to like bring everyone in and say, here's what's happening. And so, uh, that one I, we did, we did over video chat, we did remote and I think it went over really well as well. Uh, got the team aligned, kind of put everyone at ease. Uh, so I think it's, I think it's doable at a remote, but, but it doesn't hurt if you can all be together in a room.

AI assessment note: “I think you can do this stuff remote as well.”

Q each call, and I find the commonalities between what they said and the ones that are the most important. I then look into more, and then I'll actually do some research. That's my process, which is why I did interviewing VCs actually. That's why I started the show. Cause I just wanted to like, that's mine. Do you see what I mean? Do you think of your process like that?

A Yeah. Yeah, totally. So I think another thing that's like been really valuable and helpful for me is I love like applied learning. And so, uh, I love taking knowledge I have and then applying it. I think it's just like much more satisfying and rewarding. And so, and I think I've always felt that way. Like I think back to like, Uh, when I was in high school and I was learning calculus, uh, we, you know, I went home and I like told my, a couple of my friends, Hey, I just learned this new thing and we were working on building a bike ramp. Uh, and I was like, Hey, let's, I know exactly how to figure out like what the, what the slope, uh, you know, what the slope of the trajectory is on the way out and kind of applied the calculus. I just learned like earlier that day to figure out how to build this bike ramp. And so it was like, just made it way more fun. And so I think another, another good example of that is I learned accounting in, uh, in college and I, and I felt like this is pretty boring. Uh, and then when I came back to it at Cambly and my business really depended on it, uh, all of a sudden it was like this really, really interesting thing that I was like really deeply like, I gotta figure this out. Uh, and so I, I love applied learning. Um, I think the other thing, yeah, the other thing that comes to mind is, is, you know, one-on-one interactions. I think, you know, when I …

AI assessment note: “Yeah. Yeah, totally. So I think another thing that's like been really valuable”

Q money now. And, uh, you know, I spoke to Jeremy, he told me you haven't touched a dollar of your series A or your series B. Like, bluntly, You're not optimizing for growth, uh, is, is kind of what you, one would take away from this. Like, how do you feel about that growth versus profitability now? And now you have the leverage. Is now not the time to spend?

A Yeah. So I guess the one thing I'll call out is, uh, just because we haven't touched the series A money and the series B money, it doesn't mean that we sort of, um, behaved exactly the same, you know, had we not raised that money. Like, Having that cash cushion, I think allows us to be much, much more aggressive, uh, and, and make a very different set of decisions. And so, um, I think we've benefited a lot from the cash, even if we haven't touched it, because it's allowed us to like plan around that. Uh, not to mention as you know, Jeremy, Jeremy Levine and Sarah Tavel are, are incredible. Like they've been so instrumental at helping us figure out how to continue to scale the company, how to recruit the right people into the organization. And so it's not just the money you're getting, you're getting like, Uh, real expertise, and so I think we've benefited a lot from those raises, and I, and I feel really good about it, but, but to come back to your question about, you know, growth versus profitability, um, you know, the way I think about it is I want to grow as fast as, as humanly possible, uh, but I want to do it in a sustainable and healthy way, and, uh, I know that the markets kind of change, and sometimes that's a trendy thing to say, and sometimes it's not, and right now maybe it's a little trendy, but, but, you know, we've been doing it for, Years and years now. And I thi…

AI assessment note: “I want to grow as fast as, as humanly possible, uh, but I want to do it in a sustainable”

Q A couple of things that always strike me when you grow a team quickly, like you are, how do you retain speed with increasing team size? So often you get bloat, you get processes. How do you think about retaining speed with scale of team?

A Yeah, that's a tough one. Uh, and something I've definitely like has, has been challenging. I don't know if I have a silver bullet, uh, for it, I think. Uh, when you're small, it's really easy to kind of know what everyone is doing. And so you can kind of almost personally, uh, make sure that like people are focused on the right things and you can get kind of give feedback in a one-on-one context. Uh, but as you grow, obviously that, that quickly breaks down. And so I think you have to introduce like a bit more, um, you know, process and organization around it. Uh, uh, Things like planning, things like setting goals, uh, being really deliberate about who owns what and like, uh, giving, giving folks across your org ownership over, you know, ownership autonomy over, um, going after certain goals. And so, uh, but, but it's a learning process. I think we're still figuring it out. And I think, Uh, it's, yeah, it's something that I think has, has been, has been challenging, and yeah, we're, we're, we're getting better at it every day.

AI assessment note: “introduce like a bit more, um, you know, process and organization around it”

Q Um, and he said, uh, wonderful, wonderful trait of yours is your ability to learn. Um, he did say there's a downside, which we'll get to later. Um, but, um, he said your learning process, like figure out, he's so smart and he learns so many different things so fast. What is your learning process? How do you deconstruct new subject matter? How do you think through how to learn?

A Yeah. So, uh, it's maybe not a secret that I, I like immersive, uh, learning. Uh, that's what, what Cambly is all about. Uh, and so I like to really like dive deep into a topic, uh, and really kind of try to wrap my, my, my head around it. Um, uh, I also like, uh, I'm very much like a first principles kind of thinker. And so, Uh, it's really important for me to not just, um, understand the what, but also the why, um, like, cause, cause sometimes, you know, those lessons might not apply very directly. And if you don't understand like where stuff is coming from, you might take away the wrong, you know, you might have the wrong takeaway from that. And so, um, That's, that's really, really, really important for me as well.

AI assessment note: “I like immersive, uh, learning... I'm very much like a first principles kind of thinker.”

Q What is the first thing to break in a scaling organization?

A Uh, I think like. The, the thing you touched on earlier around, like, how do you, how do you keep, uh, how do you increase your velocity as you grow the organization? I think that's a really challenging one that, uh, can be, can be misleading because, uh, it feels like if you add people to your company, of course you'll go faster, but it's not a given that, that, that happens. And I think Kevin and I like had been, you know, in organizations where we saw like Teams grow and then not necessarily move faster as a result of it. And so, uh, I think that's one that like is particularly top of mind for me. I don't know if it's the first thing that breaks, but I think it's one that, you know, how do you make sure that as you add people, uh, your, your company actually moves much faster. Uh, and if it moves slower, that's, that's terrible. Right. But even if it's moving the same speed, you've now just become a less efficient company. Uh, and so figuring out how you can still drive that same level of impact. Uh, as the organization grows, I think is, is a real challenge, and I think we're getting much better at it, but it's been, it's been a learning curve for me, for sure.

AI assessment note: “I don't know if it's the first thing that breaks, but I think it's”

Q each call, and I find the commonalities between what they said and the ones that are the most important. I then look into more, and then I'll actually do some research. That's my process, which is why I did interviewing VCs actually. That's why I started the show. Cause I just wanted to like, that's mine. Do you see what I mean? Do you think of your process like that?

A Yeah. Yeah, totally. So I think another thing that's like been really valuable and helpful for me is I love like applied learning. And so, uh, I love taking knowledge I have and then applying it. I think it's just like much more satisfying and rewarding. And so, and I think I've always felt that way. Like I think back to like, Uh, when I was in high school and I was learning calculus, uh, we, you know, I went home and I like told my, a couple of my friends, Hey, I just learned this new thing and we were working on building a bike ramp. Uh, and I was like, Hey, let's, I know exactly how to figure out like what the, what the slope, uh, you know, what the slope of the trajectory is on the way out and kind of applied the calculus. I just learned like earlier that day to figure out how to build this bike ramp. And so it was like, just made it way more fun. And so I think another, another good example of that is I learned accounting in, uh, in college and I, and I felt like this is pretty boring. Uh, and then when I came back to it at Cambly and my business really depended on it, uh, all of a sudden it was like this really, really interesting thing that I was like really deeply like, I gotta figure this out. Uh, and so I, I love applied learning. Um, I think the other thing, yeah, the other thing that comes to mind is, is, you know, one-on-one interactions. I think, you know, when I …

AI assessment note: “So I think another thing that's like been really valuable and helpful for me”

Q What have been your biggest hiring mistakes? Hiring is always a challenge. What have been the biggest hiring mistakes for you?

A Yeah, so, uh, we have this really interesting country manager model, and I, I'd love to talk a little bit more about that, but I can, I can zoom into this, this, this, uh, question. Um, you know, when we were hiring country managers and, Uh, again, actually, maybe I'll take a minute to like talk about our country manager model. Um, so we, we've, um, because of the, how, how unusual Cambly is as a business, uh, we've, uh, we kind of discovered fairly early on that, uh, we, we need to market to all these places that we don't know about. We don't know the language. We don't know the culture. And so, uh, The literally the first hire that Kevin and I made, we were two sort of former Google software engineers, uh, and employee number one was a Korea country manager. So pretty odd makeup of a three person team. But when you think about the space we're in, uh, and the, you know, the business we're in, uh, where our customers are, it made total sense. And what we found was. If you could hire the right person, uh, it was a massive unlock. I mean, Korea went from being kind of not even really on the map to, to quickly becoming our biggest market shortly after making that hire. And so obviously a lot of really interesting lessons there. Um, and, um, I guess we did a good job with that first hire. I think over the process, what we learned is there are certain qualities that That are really,…

AI assessment note: “actually, maybe I'll take a minute to like talk about our country manager model”

Q What have been your biggest hiring mistakes? Hiring is always a challenge. What have been the biggest hiring mistakes for you?

A Yeah, so, uh, we have this really interesting country manager model, and I, I'd love to talk a little bit more about that, but I can, I can zoom into this, this, this, uh, question. Um, you know, when we were hiring country managers and, Uh, again, actually, maybe I'll take a minute to like talk about our country manager model. Um, so we, we've, um, because of the, how, how unusual Cambly is as a business, uh, we've, uh, we kind of discovered fairly early on that, uh, we, we need to market to all these places that we don't know about. We don't know the language. We don't know the culture. And so, uh, The literally the first hire that Kevin and I made, we were two sort of former Google software engineers, uh, and employee number one was a Korea country manager. So pretty odd makeup of a three person team. But when you think about the space we're in, uh, and the, you know, the business we're in, uh, where our customers are, it made total sense. And what we found was. If you could hire the right person, uh, it was a massive unlock. I mean, Korea went from being kind of not even really on the map to, to quickly becoming our biggest market shortly after making that hire. And so obviously a lot of really interesting lessons there. Um, and, um, I guess we did a good job with that first hire. I think over the process, what we learned is there are certain qualities that That are really,…

AI assessment note: “maybe I'll take a minute to like talk about our country manager model.”