The Exchanges

Q I was talking of sweating it. What did Excel not do that with the benefit of hindsight you would have done or would have done differently?

A Well, you know, I mean, really starting in like Like, 2000, we, um, began to, uh, extend to the product line, if you will. Uh, and so we went from doing, you know, kind of early stage investing, almost exclusively, uh, in B to B, and actually specifically called out enterprise software and communications, right? That was the goal, the strategy that, that we saw in 96. And in 2000, you know, we launched Excel London, uh, and Kevin Camoli came on, and he did a tremendous job, uh, in, in building that. Uh, in building that team and made it into, you know, a leader which you're very familiar with. And, um, and that was really just the beginning. And, you know, what came later, of course, were other geographic extensions in China and India. Stage extensions with the launch of the growth funds, uh, which, you know, of course, have been, have been incredibly successful. Sector expansions, you know, we developed a, a, a big, uh, consumer practice, you know, which hadn't really been there before. Uh, and, and, and so, What I think, uh, amidst all the success of that, I think what we underestimated, uh, sort of the impact of scale and complexity, and, you know, and so we had, we had sort of built the firm around focus. Now we were intentionally moving away from, you know, that kind of single-threaded strategy, and what would the consequences be? And it, it turned out, at least, you know,…

AI assessment note: “I think what we underestimated, uh, sort of the impact of scale and complexity”

Q You mentioned there about, you know, multi-stage players appreciating that the craftsmanship of seed may be in the value that one brings at seed. Putting it out there. I don't think the best founders need help from VCs. Um, founders fund would agree with me, or I agree with them, whichever one we want to take. Um, do the best founders need their VCs?

A Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, but you know, they might not, you know, the, the, it doesn't mean that they can't accomplish great things on their own, but they can accomplish more greater things with, with a good business partner. I think it depends on the investor to, you know, to, frankly, to, to a large degree. Um, it also depends on the founder. The very best founders that I work with, uh, the most talented, most capable, most sought after are also the ones where, you know, we have the highest bandwidth engagement, um, sort of, I think, get to the, the root of issues and come up with better answers together, you know, most frequently. And so, you know, I think there is a high correlation. You know, between the caliber of the founder and also their ability to get the most out of, uh, out of the relationships they have with their investors and their board members.

AI assessment note: “they can accomplish more greater things with, with a good business partner.”

Q then, you know, a founder, Dan Soroka, came back and said, oh, I never let a round be over 10% dilution. And I said, well, that's, that's very challenging because you've just excluded a bunch of great investors from ever investing in your company because the max that gets eight with two from existing. So it's a challenge. Um, how do you think about ownership and what's enough for you?

A Yeah, this is a great question, Harry. You know, so when I, when I got into the, into the business, you know, there was the 20% rule, like, oh, we need to own 20%. And I remember thinking, like in one of my early partner meetings, you know, I heard that, and I'm like, why? Like, what, you know, where'd that come from? Why 20? You know, what is, why not? Well, you know, that's a number. Okay. What, what about some other numbers? Aren't we just sort of, isn't it about like how much gain you make and the return on capital and, you know, all of a sudden, and I think it was just sort of an artifact of, you know, size of outcomes and size of funds at a certain moment in time. Right. And so kind of, and, and I think, you know, 20% ownership, you know, with some dilution later on, you know, what constituted a good outcome at The time would sort of return a fund or maybe, you know, twice return a fund and, and, you know, and so the math sort of hung together. It was the relationship between all those things. All those things have obviously changed now, right? Fund sizes are different. Outcome sizes are different. You know, so there's no, no real reason the 20% rule should make any sense, but I think that the logic that, especially if you're devoting real time to a project, which is what we do, right, as an early stage lead investor, and not just time in the first couple years, but, you …

AI assessment note: “the result to the impact on fund returns needs to be of a scale”

Q and more successful because I ask questions that I'm just too interested by. I asked Roger Ehrenberg when he mentioned some of his successes, but a question that I think to a lot Which is, you know, you mentioned holding Facebook stock that, you know, Excel was a phenomenally successful period for you in terms of wealth generation. Do richer investors make better investors because they are not so scared?

A Yeah, I don't know. And I mean, and you could ask the same question about founders, um, you know, which this is like the argument for secondary sales and, you know, it's a very closely related point. I kind of think no, uh, I think, you know, I like, I think hunger, hunger is important for everybody. Uh, some people stay hungry even if they have substantial personal balance sheets, you know, and they have, they have these other things motivating them besides just finances. Other things they're trying to achieve are just their, their personalities are wired a certain way. Um, but, uh, yeah, no, I don't, I, you know, I, I, I guess I kind of go the other way on that one.

AI assessment note: “I kind of think no, uh, I think, you know, I like, I think hunger”

Q then, you know, a founder, Dan Soroka, came back and said, oh, I never let a round be over 10% dilution. And I said, well, that's, that's very challenging because you've just excluded a bunch of great investors from ever investing in your company because the max that gets eight with two from existing. So it's a challenge. Um, how do you think about ownership and what's enough for you?

A Yeah, this is a great question, Harry. You know, so when I, when I got into the, into the business, you know, there was the 20% rule, like, oh, we need to own 20%. And I remember thinking, like in one of my early partner meetings, you know, I heard that, and I'm like, why? Like, what, you know, where'd that come from? Why 20? You know, what is, why not? Well, you know, that's a number. Okay. What, what about some other numbers? Aren't we just sort of, isn't it about like how much gain you make and the return on capital and, you know, all of a sudden, and I think it was just sort of an artifact of, you know, size of outcomes and size of funds at a certain moment in time. Right. And so kind of, and, and I think, you know, 20% ownership, you know, with some dilution later on, you know, what constituted a good outcome at The time would sort of return a fund or maybe, you know, twice return a fund and, and, you know, and so the math sort of hung together. It was the relationship between all those things. All those things have obviously changed now, right? Fund sizes are different. Outcome sizes are different. You know, so there's no, no real reason the 20% rule should make any sense, but I think that the logic that, especially if you're devoting real time to a project, which is what we do, right, as an early stage lead investor, and not just time in the first couple years, but, you …

AI assessment note: “the impact on fund returns needs to be of a scale”

Q On that reflection, I'm so sorry to ask if it's, if it's painful, but I think often from the hard things you learn the most. And if you reflect on that, what did you learn? What did you not see? What, what, what are your reflections?

A So it was a trust and safety product. And it was going to use AI to, uh, to support the trust and safety efforts, uh, of, you know, on, you know, businesses and brands online. This was thought like, okay, well, it's going to be an enhancement to, uh, customer experience. You know, it was starting out, it was like super important in verticals like gaming and dating, you know, but this was going to end up mattering to everybody that was doing business online, right? That, that, that was the premise. Turned out not some, not, Actually, no. Uh, you know, the, the willingness to spend was really actually concentrated, and at least now, uh, in a, in a relatively small number of businesses, and I, I think the mistake was, like, I really wanted it to be true, like, and, and maybe, you know, because I would just love for the internet to be that kind of place, you know, with sort of better behaviors being reinforced, and, you know, kind of bad behaviors being reduced, like, like, I don't know if you can see this poster behind me here, Harry, it says, I want to believe, you know.

AI assessment note: “I think the mistake was, like, I really wanted it to be true”

Q and more successful because I ask questions that I'm just too interested by. I asked Roger Ehrenberg when he mentioned some of his successes, but a question that I think to a lot Which is, you know, you mentioned holding Facebook stock that, you know, Excel was a phenomenally successful period for you in terms of wealth generation. Do richer investors make better investors because they are not so scared?

A Yeah, I don't know. And I mean, and you could ask the same question about founders, um, you know, which this is like the argument for secondary sales and, you know, it's a very closely related point. I kind of think no, uh, I think, you know, I like, I think hunger, hunger is important for everybody. Uh, some people stay hungry even if they have substantial personal balance sheets, you know, and they have, they have these other things motivating them besides just finances. Other things they're trying to achieve are just their, their personalities are wired a certain way. Um, but, uh, yeah, no, I don't, I, you know, I, I, I guess I kind of go the other way on that one.

AI assessment note: “I kind of think no, uh, I think, you know, I like, I think hunger, hunger is important”

Q Yep. No, I totally get you. Uh, final one for you, Peter. 10 years time wing, it'll be 20, 34. If everything goes to plan, we often ask companies this, as you know, what does this company become? If I apply that to wing, if everything goes to plan, what does wing become?

A Yeah. Um, well, I mean, this is the original mission statement, right? Is to be, you know, the, the very best partner to founders building, um, companies that matter in B to B technology, you know, from their early stages all the way through to, um, you know, hopefully, uh, uh, self-sustaining, um, company of enduring value. Um, 10 years from now, I won't be leading that charge, uh, and, you know, the, the generation of investors that we've been developing here, uh, at Wing will, you know, hopefully have, uh, sort of taken it to new heights well beyond, well beyond what my limited capabilities deliver, uh, and, uh, yeah, I look forward, I look forward to, to cheering for that.

AI assessment note: “the generation of investors that we've been developing here, uh, at Wing will”

Q Okay. So it's a crutch because they lack the courage of their convictions. Me asking you, how do you create an environment where young people don't lack the courage of conviction?

A Yeah. Um, well, I mean, it gets back to that enough rope to hang yourself, but also some guardrails to, you know, keep you from losing confidence. Uh, and so, you know, pushing, pushing that accountability, but also that group support. You know, sort of in tandem is part of it. You know, I mean, when you're doing, you know, like the metrics are great, but I mean, you know, you need strategic analysis, you need judgment, you know, you need, you know, a lot of other things that won't show up on the spreadsheet. And, you know, you got to develop those skills too, if you want to be a good investor. And so, you know, kind of making, making, making sure that that is part of, part of the program, uh, is, is important.

AI assessment note: “enough rope to hang yourself, but also some guardrails to, you know, keep you”

Q I was talking of sweating it. What did Excel not do that with the benefit of hindsight you would have done or would have done differently?

A Well, you know, I mean, really starting in like Like, 2000, we, um, began to, uh, extend to the product line, if you will. Uh, and so we went from doing, you know, kind of early stage investing, almost exclusively, uh, in B to B, and actually specifically called out enterprise software and communications, right? That was the goal, the strategy that, that we saw in 96. And in 2000, you know, we launched Excel London, uh, and Kevin Camoli came on, and he did a tremendous job, uh, in, in building that. Uh, in building that team and made it into, you know, a leader which you're very familiar with. And, um, and that was really just the beginning. And, you know, what came later, of course, were other geographic extensions in China and India. Stage extensions with the launch of the growth funds, uh, which, you know, of course, have been, have been incredibly successful. Sector expansions, you know, we developed a, a, a big, uh, consumer practice, you know, which hadn't really been there before. Uh, and, and, and so, What I think, uh, amidst all the success of that, I think what we underestimated, uh, sort of the impact of scale and complexity, and, you know, and so we had, we had sort of built the firm around focus. Now we were intentionally moving away from, you know, that kind of single-threaded strategy, and what would the consequences be? And it, it turned out, at least, you know,…

AI assessment note: “what we underestimated sort of the impact of scale and complexity”

Q Okay. So it's a crutch because they lack the courage of their convictions. Me asking you, how do you create an environment where young people don't lack the courage of conviction?

A Yeah. Um, well, I mean, it gets back to that enough rope to hang yourself, but also some guardrails to, you know, keep you from losing confidence. Uh, and so, you know, pushing, pushing that accountability, but also that group support. You know, sort of in tandem is part of it. You know, I mean, when you're doing, you know, like the metrics are great, but I mean, you know, you need strategic analysis, you need judgment, you know, you need, you know, a lot of other things that won't show up on the spreadsheet. And, you know, you got to develop those skills too, if you want to be a good investor. And so, you know, kind of making, making, making sure that that is part of, part of the program, uh, is, is important.

AI assessment note: “enough rope to hang yourself, but also some guardrails”