The Exchanges

Q Can I ask you, who did you try and convince, but couldn't?

A I think there's been occasions when we have Try to, to, to make certain changes, and I think the biggest hesitation is the, the fear of losing control. So, um, at occasions, I think data has been clear that, for example, we have to move tech to a common tech platform. So we are running a global tech platform of a, and it's clear that it's, it's outperforming anything else. Uh, so this is logistics. The tech stack is the vendor tech stack. It's the warehouse management tools, picker applications, payments, et cetera, et cetera. So we have a tech backbone. That is exceptionally good. But of course, once you get on there, you lose a little bit of control of the business that you're running because if you're running all of an entity and suddenly you have to rely on me running logistics for them or me running vendor for them, of course, they, they give up certain autonomy. Um, so, so, so there has been occasions when That control factor has been playing a role, and therefore certain hesitation of, of, of moving together. Um, I think over time, yeah, sometimes we maybe were not fast enough, um, and, and not good enough in convincing, and, and, and that had, in those cases, uh, Being a larger disruption later on. I think if you take the example of Turkey, I think there was a lot of hesitations and moving into a global tech stack. And we saw that it was a deterioration in development s…

AI assessment note: “if you take the example of Turkey, I think there was a lot of hesitations”

Q You can buy and hold one stock for the next 10 years other than Delivery Hero. Which stock do you buy and hold?

A I like the philosophy of thinking 10 years and hold, um, because I think it sets the right direction of what are the companies that cannot be disrupted over 10 years. And I was always a big fan of Amazon and so on. I'm still a big fan of, of Amazon, but of course the valuation of those companies have gone up a lot. So you cannot count on margin expansion, uh, or, or multiple expansion. Sorry. Um, so, so the growth in those stocks will only be, or the value growth in those stocks would basically only be the growth that it can generate. That's still probably going to be a fair amount. So, so maybe, you know, maybe I stick with them with Amazon.

AI assessment note: “maybe I stick with them with Amazon”

Q What uncertain thing would you most like to double down on today?

A I think we, we, we are a brave company that do what we believe in. So I, I do not think that we're holding back too much. Of course, I mentioned before, we are big believers in the whole quick commerce, grocery shopping type of thing. Uh, other verticals that we're expanding into as well, uh, health and beauty, and that's, and so on. Um, I mentioned before, I think that's, that's easily more than 50% of our business long term. Today is only a small portion, a small fraction. So that's something we are doubling down on. But, but, uh, uh, yeah, maybe, yeah, I, I, I don't think we're too afraid of losing or taking a risk. Uh, we are willing to take risk as long as we have good data behind it.

AI assessment note: “we are big believers in the whole quick commerce, grocery shopping type of thing.”

Q What do you mean? It'll be able to cover a larger portion. It does pick and pack or it does delivery. What is that? Where do they own that segment?

A Yeah. So, so of course the challenge with, uh, uh, drones is that it, it's hard to do in the city center of cities because of noise and regulation and a place to land on and take off from. So it's a little bit harder to do that in city centers and so on. And, uh, while I know the robotics, uh, you can do in, In small cities, big cities, city centers, you can do it everywhere. It's a little bit slower than drones, so if you look at an average drone delivery, it's happening like three minutes plus loading, offloading. Robots have, I don't know, they cannot do the shortest way, they have to actually take the road, they have to wait for stop sign and so on, and they cannot drive in the same pace as you have a drone, so they're slower. But they can, they can get you almost anywhere. That would probably be large much faster than, than, than drones.

AI assessment note: “while I know the robotics, uh, you can do in, In small cities, big cities”

Q What do you say to Oscar when he faces the pressure that he's under from a national and a government perspective? Is it like, hey, dude, I'm here for you. Call me. Is it like, oh, shit. That's a big fine. What does one say?

A I think generally the principle of delivery here is, is that we are in the details and, um, we, we, yeah, we, we are in the transit in the details. So I will not step there and, and just not be helpful. And not knowing the details. I'll be in the details and the same thing. I expect Oscar to be in the details. And, uh, of course we, we collectively try to find the best path forward and how we can solve it and be supportive and, and making sure we take the right decisions and, and, and operate in, in, in a good way. But in the end, we can only do so much in the end. It's, it's, Um, I, I, I cannot blame Oscar for, for challenges, uh, that he is not responsible for, um, that has affected him, but where we have collectively taken decisions that we think are right, then of course we, we, we, we also take shared responsibility on those topics.

AI assessment note: “collectively try to find the best path forward and how we can solve it and be supportive”

Q When you think about those bold decision moments, when you're sitting there and you know it's one of those moments, Can you take me to a time where you got the decision wrong?

A I think, yeah, quick commerce is an interesting space. I think we have been exceptionally happy with the performance of how we have been able to scale the whole quick commerce side. And that was also a contrarian belief, uh, to double down on this was not a very popular one, but we felt that if you want to build what the customers really want and what they're asking, And demanding, then we have to be able to deliver groceries and other items in a short fashion. And I think right now that's a big part of our business and long term is going to be more than 50% of our business. So larger than food for sure. So that was, I don't know, that turned out to be a right bet. At the same time, we also did a bet in a company called Gorillaz because we felt we cannot do quick commerce ourselves in every geography. We can't afford it. It's too expensive. Uh, to build up. So we, we rather felt let's take some of the money, put it in another company and see how we can learn and see how they can succeed and potentially, uh, certain opportunities in, in the future. Unfortunately, the, the, the business model probably could have worked out and also for gorillas, but the challenge is that the market changed and there was not possible to raise capital anymore for these companies and they burn too much. So

AI assessment note: “we also did a bet in a company called Gorillaz”

Q When you think about those bold decision moments, when you're sitting there and you know it's one of those moments, Can you take me to a time where you got the decision wrong?

A I think, yeah, quick commerce is an interesting space. I think we have been exceptionally happy with the performance of how we have been able to scale the whole quick commerce side. And that was also a contrarian belief, uh, to double down on this was not a very popular one, but we felt that if you want to build what the customers really want and what they're asking, And demanding, then we have to be able to deliver groceries and other items in a short fashion. And I think right now that's a big part of our business and long term is going to be more than 50% of our business. So larger than food for sure. So that was, I don't know, that turned out to be a right bet. At the same time, we also did a bet in a company called Gorillaz because we felt we cannot do quick commerce ourselves in every geography. We can't afford it. It's too expensive. Uh, to build up. So we, we rather felt let's take some of the money, put it in another company and see how we can learn and see how they can succeed and potentially, uh, certain opportunities in, in the future. Unfortunately, the, the, the business model probably could have worked out and also for gorillas, but the challenge is that the market changed and there was not possible to raise capital anymore for these companies and they burn too much. So

AI assessment note: “we also did a bet in a company called Gorillaz... not possible to raise capital”

Q You mentioned that investing in gorillas is a lesson. You know, I, I spoke to so many of our friends who said, literally, Niklas is the master of M&A. When you say about investing in gorillas, that's the extent that you did, two hundred million, it's a lot. How do you think about that buy versus build, given your incredibly effective M&A strategy as well? Talk to me about that.

A Yeah, so, so, and of course, going back to this two hundred million mistake also done here that we were a thirty five billion company. So this was Back then, less than a percent. It was a half a percent of our market cap that we felt like we are willing to take this back on this. Of course, if that valuation falls from a thirty five billion to five or ten billion, then of course, losing two hundred million is a lot, especially if you don't have the cash in the balance or have enough cash in the balance sheet. So I think that is also part of the learning that you have to, you have to take yourself a little bit out of this Uh, speed mode, uh, and, and, and, and think it through on, on, on a more fundamental basis than, than getting too caught up with your current value or your current growth.

AI assessment note: “going back to this two hundred million mistake also done here”

Q We mentioned confidence and having the courage of convictions. I, I do want to talk about something you said to me before, which is Daring to be contrarian. Making decisions not everyone believes in. Can you talk to me? How do you think about this specifically with regards to your leadership?

A I think great leaders, uh, they follow their beliefs and when they do, people follow them. And, and I think that also means that they will be contrary. There will be occasions when they go against the stream. And if they have a good judgment and great leaders have good judgments, then they're usually coming out very strong afterwards. Uh, and every time they succeed there, they will build the follow base and trust. And I think it's very dangerous when leaders don't follow their belief. Uh, I think it, it drives skepticism organization. I think, uh, it, it usually will not be getting the respect. It will be inconsistent. The leadership will not be consistent when they don't do what they think and what they believe in. Uh, so I do think that great leaders have to follow their, their instinct and their belief, even if there are sometimes contrarian views.

AI assessment note: “I think great leaders, uh, they follow their beliefs and when they do”

Q I mean, listen, I had Oscar on the show and he mentioned obviously the intense regulatory pressure that he's under from the Spanish government and it not being applied to, you know, bluntly Uber and foreign competitors. To what extent is Europe regulating itself into oblivion?

A It's a big burden, especially on smaller companies, um, to deal with. I, I do think that sometimes We are hard on European companies and European companies are, are there's more scrutiny on us. There's a lot of regulation that is circumvented or ignored by Chinese and US companies. Um, so I, I do think that we have to truly level the playing field, um, in, in many ways. And, um, yeah, I, I, I, I hope that happens. I think a lot of US players also leverage the dominance. I think DMA is an example of good regulation. Um, so we have to also make sure that it's enforced. Yeah. Yeah. We have to make sure the US and Chinese companies cannot circumvent regulation. Um, we have to make sure that we are not going after European companies more than US companies just because it's easier to, to approach us and reach us. So there are a few things that I think that we have to also work on to making that level playing field, and I hope that that will also happen.

AI assessment note: “It's a big burden, especially on smaller companies, um, to deal with.”

Q How do you think about that? Never get any value. With regards to emerging markets, one of the most important things I've learned is kind of pathways to liquidity, and actually emerging markets bluntly are much more challenging to get liquidity from. There's just not much local liquidity. How do you think about that with emerging markets?

A Yes, I think, I don't think, I know, for us, it's not such a big difference. I know, we would rather see, do we have a return when investing this customer, regardless where they sit. Um, and in some markets, you can just scale it in a certain way. You cannot scale it fast. And coming back to the point that I tried to make before, you can make this business break even on a year after a year, or maybe two, Uh, in a country, but then you're going to not invest a lot of money and you're just going to gradually scale it in a small percentage every year. And then you kind of run a break even for 10 years. And I did that during the early days. I was part of starting was online pizza. It was a completely bootstrap, no investors at all. So we were break even almost on the first day of our business. But of course, then it takes a very long time and you're not maximizing your business. If you have a good return on your customers, well, you want to buy as many customers as you can at the price at which you have a good return. So, and, and that doesn't really matter where they sit, if they sit in, in, in, in, in developer markets, emerging markets, uh, B for us, it would be, I don't know, no big difference.

AI assessment note: “we would rather see, do we have a return when investing this customer”

Q How do you think about that? Never get any value. With regards to emerging markets, one of the most important things I've learned is kind of pathways to liquidity, and actually emerging markets bluntly are much more challenging to get liquidity from. There's just not much local liquidity. How do you think about that with emerging markets?

A Yes, I think, I don't think, I know, for us, it's not such a big difference. I know, we would rather see, do we have a return when investing this customer, regardless where they sit. Um, and in some markets, you can just scale it in a certain way. You cannot scale it fast. And coming back to the point that I tried to make before, you can make this business break even on a year after a year, or maybe two, Uh, in a country, but then you're going to not invest a lot of money and you're just going to gradually scale it in a small percentage every year. And then you kind of run a break even for 10 years. And I did that during the early days. I was part of starting was online pizza. It was a completely bootstrap, no investors at all. So we were break even almost on the first day of our business. But of course, then it takes a very long time and you're not maximizing your business. If you have a good return on your customers, well, you want to buy as many customers as you can at the price at which you have a good return. So, and, and that doesn't really matter where they sit, if they sit in, in, in, in, in developer markets, emerging markets, uh, B for us, it would be, I don't know, no big difference.

AI assessment note: “we would rather see, do we have a return when investing this customer”