The Exchanges

Q And what is, did you have 10 years out for Langchain? If you'd project, I think it was Chatham, I think on one show, said, like, Ventures is a game of upside maximization. When you plot a graph of if all the stars align, what could Langchain be? What could it be?

A Yeah, I think we have, as we talked about, there's, Tens of millions of developers becoming AI developers, and it's sort of a new computing paradigm, right? Like it's not retrieving from the database, it's generative. And the framework to build AI apps for every developer and the tooling around that, um, new paradigm, uh, is the focus. You know, if you want sort of trying to analogize recently, you know, you might look at things like, um, uh, Next.js and Vasell, you know, in that journey, if you want to go to the past, you might think about rails and, Things like New Relic around it, which were, um, uh, tooling and monitoring. Um, you might analogize and think about things like Docker, which, um, made, um, you know, a lot of development much easier by Dockerizing. And there was a new framework for doing it all, um, and, and, and, and empowered, you know, I think there were quite literally tens of millions of developers with, you know, Docker accounts. Now it was, you know, a way of building applications, um, containerized that will happen for AI apps. And, and I think that's, Um, uh, the exciting opportunity to chase.

AI assessment note: “the framework to build AI apps for every developer and the tooling”

Q No, I totally get you. Um, can I ask you, when it came to Lionchain, how did that deal go down?

A More than half of what we do is the first partner, you know, probably a third kind of an inception, um, uh, as one was exploring more of what was possible with things like sort of reacting the agent ideas and this idea that, um, every developer would, would become an AI developer versus just the ML wizardry, you know, Harrison, um, very definitely, uh, and, um, uh, but like without grandiosity, you know, put out an open source library with the beginnings of abstractions for, for, for making, Agentic behavior and now a lot more around retrieval and other things easier. Um, and we just started spending a lot of time together. Um, we probably, Probably three or so months, um, before we ended up actually investing. We, you know, talk about what was happening. We talk about his framework. We talk about, you know, sequence, strengths to be building now, et cetera, and just build that relationship. I never pressured him to say, you've got to start a company. There were some people who pressured him to say, you've got to start a company, but like, that's got to be a founder's calling. Um, uh, you know, you can't unfound once you found, like it's a real responsibility. And so he then said, Hey, I want, I want to go do this. And I said, great. Like let's partner. And it's been a, it's been a privileged journey since.

AI assessment note: “he then said, Hey, I want, I want to go do this. And I said, great.”

Q like, there's application layer and there's infrastructure layer. And then I think about actually where do I think value accrues and why I think it's actually more infrastructure layer for the time being, which is, you know, democratization of fine tuning security, kind of democratized data acquisition for startups as well and cleansing. Do you agree with me that actually infrastructure layer AI is where it's most exciting right now?

A Obviously with investment in Langtrain, um, and we have a few others at Benchmark Cerebrus, which is, uh, you know, an AI chip, um, for training and inference. We backed a team that worked on, um, and was the leads of PyTorch and, and, and has got a new company and some others. We certainly, you know, think that, and, and to the Langtrain point, but the idea that every developer is going to come to Being, building AI native, AI enabled applications, right? Incumbents are gonna enable it. Um, uh, new companies are gonna fully embrace it, and they're needing new tooling and new frameworks for that environment, like I think is, is, you know, um, absolutely happening. I think in the arc of time, um, if it is a shift, um, like the internet was in many ways, um, the applications, Which might not look like an applications, right, in the way that we think of them, but might look more like, you know, this control center idea will, um, have profound amounts of value to them, um, and will probably also pull through even better, uh, infrastructure, um, in the way that, you know, Facebook became some of the biggest contributors, you know, to MySQL and a bunch of open stuff, like it pulls through the infrastructure. That I think will be Um, in the arc of time.

AI assessment note: “in the arc of time, um, if it is a shift, um, like the internet”

Q Are you able to plan expeditions if we carry on that analogy? Because the majority of A investors with a hot company or a company that's raised from great seed investors says, hey, we're not raising, like, and actually spending the time to build that relationship. How do you build relationships in a world and a landscape where actually people often raise in very static fundraising blocks?

A I think you can create, even if it was in a short amount of time, you can create that, that feeling. When we're, when we're our best, every founder who spends time with us, um, should really be able to say they got a lot out of that meeting. And, and I'd encourage all founders to, um, to take advantage of us, right? Like some, sometimes there's a, ah, I'll only pitch benchmark when I got the perfect pitch. Like that's, that's silly. That doesn't need to be the case, but we're also unique in that Um, you might end up pitching other investors multiple times because they have growth funds across and all this other stuff. We're only early. And so you get, you get sort of a chance of it, but also we're not going to be able to, we're not going to re-judge you in the future based on what you told us now, because whereas other funds might. And so take advantage of us and it should feel like we, we, we really work hard and aspire to have it feel like the founder got a lot out of that meeting. And the way they get a lot out of that meeting hopefully is You really stepped into their shoes together. And there's a certain amount of obviously context you've got to assimilate quickly, right? Like what, what they're working on, who their customer is or who their aspirational customers, et cetera. But, but very quickly, um, trying to move to being in the shoes together, planning that expedition…

AI assessment note: “even if it was in a short amount of time, you can create that”

Q partners on the show before many times, and actually all of them share the same challenge or biggest challenge, which they say is exactly as you said, actually, which is founders are nervous to approach us and want to do it last with the perfect pitch. That kind of training go to tier twos and tier threes first and perfect along the way. Would you say that's your biggest challenge?

A I certainly think it is a challenge. Um, and I'll, I'll share two thoughts around it. One is a fun, fun story. And then how to, how we think about, um, in some sense, the very best founders as a fun story. We had, uh, a founder came and pitched us, um, you know, came to the partnership, um, and, and presented a while back. Um, and we were talking, we were talking about strategy going forward and how to think about, and, uh, and one of my partners sort of goes, well, when you think about kind of the LTV of a, a customer, you know, the, the important thing might be to, and the founder goes, sorry, what's, um, LTV? As in lifetime value. Yeah. Okay.

AI assessment note: “I certainly think it is a challenge. Um, and I'll, I'll share two thoughts”

Q Did Fenton and Gurley give you any advice on joining?

A I wouldn't, Say there was, um, ever, and you know, in some sense we're always, um, as we go through it, like giving each other thoughts and feedback and, and, and nagging each other to be better, obviously. And so there wasn't, um, there wasn't sort of like some entry indoctrination or, you know, or whatever. In many ways it was, um, you be you, like you be, be, You totally kind of unfiltered and as authentic as you are, and the best version of you will be the best investor. And I think in many ways, when you get rid of structure, um, in this, there's no like level to be had or, you know, no, nothing like that. Um, the, the, just be yourself is in some sense the hardest, hardest thing.

AI assessment note: “there wasn't sort of like some entry indoctrination”

Q Final one before we touch on, like, marathons, which I do just have to tell. I'm so excited for that one. Um, what do you think the venture world believes or sees that you think they've got wrong? Like, what's a misconception that venture has about the AI world? Everyone says to me, what I've learned now is that actually the incumbents are gonna win.

A Yeah. I think, I think that co-pilot is an incumbent scheme. We're seeing a lot of co-pilot, but I don't think, I think that misses what is possible. And I think that the new architecture, um, a new business model associated with it, um, is, is starting to happen as around the corner to make work, um, will be very orthogonal. It won't be new distribution. Like the internet was a way to reach customers. You couldn't otherwise reach. Right. Um, or mobile and say, it's not going to be a distribution, um, Um, opportunity, but it's going to be a opposite offers the opportunity to be a real architectural shift and, and, and, um, holistic company shift that I think, um, great founders are starting to, to take hold of. And so the opportunity that's there that may be, um, uh, is beneath the surface of just the co-pilot ideas.

AI assessment note: “I think that co-pilot is an incumbent scheme... misses what is possible”

Q Can I ask you, you can call yourself the night before your first day joining Thrive with Josh there, and give yourself a piece of advice. Knowing all that you do now, what, what would you say to yourself?

A I knew it at the time, but it's, Sometimes, if you don't have as much historical context, it's sometimes hard to necessarily appreciate, really fully appreciate the wave in terms of context and history and specialness that you're on. And if you go and, and look, call it 2012 to like 2022 ish timeframe, cloud spend went from like ten billion to three, four hundred billion. Like there's, there's a chart, you know, the banks put out, right? It's sort of like, this is AWS spend and, you know, Azure spend, they classify and all of the cloud SaaS, like 10 to like 300, 303 154 hundred, I forget the latest number. Um, but over that 10 year period, that's what happened. And that is just a tectonic shift. And I knew I was spending a lot of time in, in, in, um, you know, cloud developer products, cloud application products. But, you know, I remember at one point I wrote this, um, sort of analysis of like, this was before they went public, Shopify versus Etsy. Um, and, uh, it's funny enough, actually, Harley, the COO of Shopify actually emailed me, cold emailed me, uh, uh, having read this little post saying, Hey, you want to come like work at Shopify? Uh, I, I was at a conference the other day spending some time with him and I showed him, I reminded him of this and he dug up the email. He was like, yep. You know, I was like, it's a lesson I give to so many founders now. Like you should al…

AI assessment note: “hard to necessarily appreciate, really fully appreciate the wave in terms of context”

Q What was the most striking example of zero interest rate environment in your mind?

A I'm sure we could list out a bunch. I would say that the more exciting thing is how The, the leadership to learn from of how some have changed, um, and reacted post it. And so we can, we can all, you know, make the, make the, name the lists of, of, um, the 2020 2022 timeframe and, um, some of the silliness. But, uh, I think the more interesting lessons to learn is, is from how great leadership's reacted. And so for Toby at Shopify to make an acquisition and then divest it With, I don't, I think within a year, maybe it was a year and a half, like not very long for an organization to say, to make a big move and say, nope, we made the wrong decision, um, that fast and not get locked into it, not get locked into the ego of having made the call and wanting to look right, but to be so truth seeking, um, to be able to, to recognize the wrong decision and correct it at that scale. Like that's something for everyone to learn from. Changes like this offer the opportunity, I think, to take, take lessons like that.

AI assessment note: “I think the more interesting lessons to learn is, is from how great leadership's reacted.”

Q What was the most striking example of zero interest rate environment in your mind?

A I'm sure we could list out a bunch. I would say that the more exciting thing is how The, the leadership to learn from of how some have changed, um, and reacted post it. And so we can, we can all, you know, make the, make the, name the lists of, of, um, the 2020 2022 timeframe and, um, some of the silliness. But, uh, I think the more interesting lessons to learn is, is from how great leadership's reacted. And so for Toby at Shopify to make an acquisition and then divest it With, I don't, I think within a year, maybe it was a year and a half, like not very long for an organization to say, to make a big move and say, nope, we made the wrong decision, um, that fast and not get locked into it, not get locked into the ego of having made the call and wanting to look right, but to be so truth seeking, um, to be able to, to recognize the wrong decision and correct it at that scale. Like that's something for everyone to learn from. Changes like this offer the opportunity, I think, to take, take lessons like that.

AI assessment note: “I think the more interesting lessons to learn is, is from how great leadership's reacted.”

Q co-pilot for anyone in the legal industry, but then through the proprietary data acquisition that they get from, uh, you know, different user inputs and different user modeling, they're able to then sell the work over time, or they say they will be able to. Is it a transitionary period where you do co-pilot to then be able to sell the work, or do you think we'll see a shift?

A I think there's so much holistically in a company that gets wrapped up around a business model, right? And if you have a co-pilot business or your product is wrapped up around that way, your distribution model's wrapped up that way, sales education's wrapped up around it. And that's why I think business model, which encapsulates product and distribution and then markets, if you can be orthogonal to that, to an incumbent strategy there, It's an, and obviously you have to be correct. It is so much being orthogonal to this idea that you would have a UX, not for a worker. You'd have a UX for a manager. The idea that you'd sell work and outcomes, not software, right? Like the idea that you're Salesforce, right? Selling a cloud subscription managed by us versus Siebel selling an on-premise license. You install, you manage, you get passion for like that's orthogonal, right? Um, there's so much wrapped up in, in, in the arc fundamental business As in company architectures and all the systems internally and all their operatings around that, that it's really hard to just change, right? That's why it ends up being asymmetric competition. It's not to say they can't and they won't. It's a lot more painful of work to be done of, of organizational change to enact. And so I think any, a startup's opportunity is to build their strength and, and, and build from scratch that strength in a way tha…

AI assessment note: “it's really hard to just change, right? That's why it ends up being asymmetric competition.”

Q Final one before we touch on, like, marathons, which I do just have to tell. I'm so excited for that one. Um, what do you think the venture world believes or sees that you think they've got wrong? Like, what's a misconception that venture has about the AI world? Everyone says to me, what I've learned now is that actually the incumbents are gonna win.

A Yeah. I think, I think that co-pilot is an incumbent scheme. We're seeing a lot of co-pilot, but I don't think, I think that misses what is possible. And I think that the new architecture, um, a new business model associated with it, um, is, is starting to happen as around the corner to make work, um, will be very orthogonal. It won't be new distribution. Like the internet was a way to reach customers. You couldn't otherwise reach. Right. Um, or mobile and say, it's not going to be a distribution, um, Um, opportunity, but it's going to be a opposite offers the opportunity to be a real architectural shift and, and, and, um, holistic company shift that I think, um, great founders are starting to, to take hold of. And so the opportunity that's there that may be, um, uh, is beneath the surface of just the co-pilot ideas.

AI assessment note: “I think that co-pilot is an incumbent scheme... I think that misses what is possible.”

Q The revenue is always an annoying one for me because it's an output metric. I'm like, what's the input metric that got you there? What's the seed expansion we need? Sure.

A But when you're in these early stages, and I'd call early, suddenly even tens of millions of revenue, not just like one, um, you're, you're, you're setting up systems You know, you're setting up learnings and systems for the future for repeatability and scale in the right way. Other success can, certain revenue can be empty calories, right? And if you think about it as a diet, like you want to make sure you've got a good diet, not empty calories. And so anyway, back to, you know, the sort of aspects of it, I really think about it as an integrated system. And so the gut check, the real question I think about a lot, um, which, which gets to that sort of holistic nature of it is how do I imagine recruiting for this? Um, if you think about the journey after investing, you know, if I take something like BenchSling, which I've worked with now for seven years, eight years, or Lattice, um, um, or Monzo, the like, I'll probably do many hundreds of recruiting calls between exec interviews as they took change exec teams on that journey, between individual ICs that I might help out with early on, If you then add in other investors you're going to have talk to about the company, conversations like this, you might talk, you're going to like pitch the company in many ways, hundreds and hundreds of times. And, and, and certainly just apply it to the recruiting, which is the core bulk of that. …

AI assessment note: “the real question I think about a lot... is how do I imagine recruiting for this?”

Q Um, no, I tend to get you. Ok, so we've got servicing as number two. We've got Yeah. So that team is number one. What's three, four and five as we go down the chart?

A You know, again, I, I really think of them. If you think of, um, investing as betting, um, I think you spend a lot more, you know, a lot more energy on, uh, the funnel and winning the first, like you're placing chips on a roulette, a roulette table. And, um, I just don't, I don't think of it that way. I really think of, um, the work we do is, is making a commitment, not a bet. And if you were to sit around our partnership meetings and the like, you really wouldn't hear the word bet come up very much in that regard. And I think if you listen to many people in the industry talk, you'll hear the word bet. I bet on this, I bet on that, you know, that's a bad bet all the time. And I think if you're more wired that way, you think of it more sort of as that funnel, sort of the sourcing funnel and coverage, you know, to make sure you get exposed to the best bets and, uh, and sort of the, the signing of them being kind of the end of it as the most important. Those would be after the other two for me, in which order, um, I'll let others tell me.

AI assessment note: “Those would be after the other two for me, in which order, um, I'll let others tell me.”

Q love that in terms of don't try and be too smart. But then history shows you, and you said about kind of Harry going off script, and so we are, but like, Fuck it. Um, history shows yourself that being second, it often generates so much less value than being first. Uber, Lyft, you know, Etsy's an incredible company at nine billion, but Shopify's at 85. It does matter, no?

A Absolutely, and obviously there's relative in it, but in many ways, all of these were still sort of being first, right? Etsy and Shopify were different, right? We don't need to drill into those too specific, but they're different. They serve different users, um, slightly different needs, And both can work, um, especially when it's still that early. And sort of the, the thing I give my, remind myself if it was 2013 and 20 12 again is like, it's so early, um, in, in, in all of that. Um, I think another connected though to that other piece would be advice and sort of reminders I give, um, myself always, but reminders of other people really getting into venture is there can be so much So much terminology, so many frameworks, SAS metrics, this, you know, at Mao-Dao ratios, that, that you feel like there were all of these kind of rules and vernacular and jargon. And the most important thing is always like, who's the user and why do they care? If you ground yourself in that always, instead of sometimes a sort of like whirlwind of other, you know, framings from investing, it'll probably serve you pretty well. I almost think more, certainly every company I recommend it to Um, more investors should sort of do it is, uh, you get started with investing books, which are useful, obviously, but the book like Working Backwards, which is about Amazon's culture, which is working backwards from t…

AI assessment note: “I think another connected though to that other piece would be advice”

Q What makes you say that about him? Like he just cannot stop.

A Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just sort of insatiable desire to learn. I think most people I know, most friends and others would say that's true of me as well. But when you see someone with it even more so, um, you know, it puts you in your place. Um, not that it's a competition for curiosity, but, but I, in some sense, well, how have I, why the breadth? I, It's just curiosity pulling me into, into different places. And, and, and usually in many ways, very founder driven. You have an inkling of interest in an area and, and someone like you meet someone like Tom and you go, you want to work with Tom. You meet someone like Dylan, you meet someone like Zach, you meet someone like Saji of, uh, Benchlang. I think of us, I think myself as a generalist, but, but really ending up being a specialist in helping founders like that. Accomplish their dreams, right? To, to make the very best decisions. And, and I think of myself as becoming a specialist in, in, not in the same degree, but in many ways in their companies, um, and, and their situations and a specialist in helping them connect up that strategy and vision into the sequencing, into, um, into, into the organization. Many of the, almost all the great companies are not like a carbon copy replica of, um, A playbook from some other prior either, right? And so there are lessons absolutely learned from the past, but I don't think it's a stamp, stam…

AI assessment note: “Just sort of insatiable desire to learn.”

Q The revenue is always an annoying one for me because it's an output metric. I'm like, what's the input metric that got you there? What's the seed expansion we need? Sure.

A But when you're in these early stages, and I'd call early, suddenly even tens of millions of revenue, not just like one, um, you're, you're, you're setting up systems You know, you're setting up learnings and systems for the future for repeatability and scale in the right way. Other success can, certain revenue can be empty calories, right? And if you think about it as a diet, like you want to make sure you've got a good diet, not empty calories. And so anyway, back to, you know, the sort of aspects of it, I really think about it as an integrated system. And so the gut check, the real question I think about a lot, um, which, which gets to that sort of holistic nature of it is how do I imagine recruiting for this? Um, if you think about the journey after investing, you know, if I take something like BenchSling, which I've worked with now for seven years, eight years, or Lattice, um, um, or Monzo, the like, I'll probably do many hundreds of recruiting calls between exec interviews as they took change exec teams on that journey, between individual ICs that I might help out with early on, If you then add in other investors you're going to have talk to about the company, conversations like this, you might talk, you're going to like pitch the company in many ways, hundreds and hundreds of times. And, and, and certainly just apply it to the recruiting, which is the core bulk of that. …

AI assessment note: “the real question I think about a lot is how do I imagine recruiting”

Q Do you think the majority of dollars going into new AI bench deals today will go to zero?

A Maybe a bit to my common early on diet. Like, I think there can be a lot of high fructose corn syrup of adoption. Like, there's an amazing magical moment in a wow, right? When you go experience ChatGPT for the first time, or, um, some of the imagery models for the first time. The rate of adoption of, like, signups to some of these things is, is just astounding. And so, I think if you, you know, some investors have been trained, uh, again, with a... Data first. Data first. Deal flow rules checklist mindset. And to the point of thinking about like some of these like are off the charts on some of those. Right. And so if you, if you think from that paradigm, like they're amazing. Um, I think when you think about sort of enduring need for some of these and, and, uh, longterm solutions, you can make the argument that you look a little more like a high fructose corn syrup diet. TBD, if they go to zero, right? Great teams will reinvent. Great teams will use that. To, to maybe do something else. So, you know, situation specific, but I think, um, if your mindset was a little more like it beat the metrics and other things, um, you, you always want to get lucky, but you'll definitely be hoping you get lucky, um, potentially in, in, in evolution of them.

AI assessment note: “TBD, if they go to zero, right? Great teams will reinvent.”

Q What makes you say that about him? Like he just cannot stop.

A Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just sort of insatiable desire to learn. I think most people I know, most friends and others would say that's true of me as well. But when you see someone with it even more so, um, you know, it puts you in your place. Um, not that it's a competition for curiosity, but, but I, in some sense, well, how have I, why the breadth? I, It's just curiosity pulling me into, into different places. And, and, and usually in many ways, very founder driven. You have an inkling of interest in an area and, and someone like you meet someone like Tom and you go, you want to work with Tom. You meet someone like Dylan, you meet someone like Zach, you meet someone like Saji of, uh, Benchlang. I think of us, I think myself as a generalist, but, but really ending up being a specialist in helping founders like that. Accomplish their dreams, right? To, to make the very best decisions. And, and I think of myself as becoming a specialist in, in, not in the same degree, but in many ways in their companies, um, and, and their situations and a specialist in helping them connect up that strategy and vision into the sequencing, into, um, into, into the organization. Many of the, almost all the great companies are not like a carbon copy replica of, um, A playbook from some other prior either, right? And so there are lessons absolutely learned from the past, but I don't think it's a stamp, stam…

AI assessment note: “Just sort of insatiable desire to learn.”

Q Um, no, I tend to get you. Ok, so we've got servicing as number two. We've got Yeah. So that team is number one. What's three, four and five as we go down the chart?

A You know, again, I, I really think of them. If you think of, um, investing as betting, um, I think you spend a lot more, you know, a lot more energy on, uh, the funnel and winning the first, like you're placing chips on a roulette, a roulette table. And, um, I just don't, I don't think of it that way. I really think of, um, the work we do is, is making a commitment, not a bet. And if you were to sit around our partnership meetings and the like, you really wouldn't hear the word bet come up very much in that regard. And I think if you listen to many people in the industry talk, you'll hear the word bet. I bet on this, I bet on that, you know, that's a bad bet all the time. And I think if you're more wired that way, you think of it more sort of as that funnel, sort of the sourcing funnel and coverage, you know, to make sure you get exposed to the best bets and, uh, and sort of the, the signing of them being kind of the end of it as the most important. Those would be after the other two for me, in which order, um, I'll let others tell me.

AI assessment note: “Those would be after the other two for me, in which order, um, I'll let others tell me.”

Q Can I ask you, you can call yourself the night before your first day joining Thrive with Josh there, and give yourself a piece of advice. Knowing all that you do now, what, what would you say to yourself?

A I knew it at the time, but it's, Sometimes, if you don't have as much historical context, it's sometimes hard to necessarily appreciate, really fully appreciate the wave in terms of context and history and specialness that you're on. And if you go and, and look, call it 2012 to like 2022 ish timeframe, cloud spend went from like ten billion to three, four hundred billion. Like there's, there's a chart, you know, the banks put out, right? It's sort of like, this is AWS spend and, you know, Azure spend, they classify and all of the cloud SaaS, like 10 to like 300, 303 154 hundred, I forget the latest number. Um, but over that 10 year period, that's what happened. And that is just a tectonic shift. And I knew I was spending a lot of time in, in, in, um, you know, cloud developer products, cloud application products. But, you know, I remember at one point I wrote this, um, sort of analysis of like, this was before they went public, Shopify versus Etsy. Um, and, uh, it's funny enough, actually, Harley, the COO of Shopify actually emailed me, cold emailed me, uh, uh, having read this little post saying, Hey, you want to come like work at Shopify? Uh, I, I was at a conference the other day spending some time with him and I showed him, I reminded him of this and he dug up the email. He was like, yep. You know, I was like, it's a lesson I give to so many founders now. Like you should al…

AI assessment note: “fully appreciate the wave in terms of context and history and specialness that you're on.”

Q partners on the show before many times, and actually all of them share the same challenge or biggest challenge, which they say is exactly as you said, actually, which is founders are nervous to approach us and want to do it last with the perfect pitch. That kind of training go to tier twos and tier threes first and perfect along the way. Would you say that's your biggest challenge?

A I certainly think it is a challenge. Um, and I'll, I'll share two thoughts around it. One is a fun, fun story. And then how to, how we think about, um, in some sense, the very best founders as a fun story. We had, uh, a founder came and pitched us, um, you know, came to the partnership, um, and, and presented a while back. Um, and we were talking, we were talking about strategy going forward and how to think about, and, uh, and one of my partners sort of goes, well, when you think about kind of the LTV of a, a customer, you know, the, the important thing might be to, and the founder goes, sorry, what's, um, LTV? As in lifetime value. Yeah. Okay.

AI assessment note: “I certainly think it is a challenge. Um, and I'll, I'll share two thoughts”