The Exchanges

Q The second element there, which is you mentioned kind of Patreon and, um, sometimes getting it wrong and customers being upset. How do you figure out whether to use Data or whether to use intuition when making growth decisions. Intuition could say, no, I know they will love this. They prefer something else. How do you think about data versus gut?

A Yeah, I think that, I think that's a really great question. Um, I almost never rely on gut. Uh, but I also think it's a kind of a failure to over rotate on just quantitative data. So the mistakes that we made at Patreon were, were typically just looking at numbers and not actually, and thinking, oh, these numbers say that if we do this, it's in the best interest of creators, it's going to work great. Like we know what our bounding boxes and our error error, uh, potential. Um, and then, oh, by the way, we forgot to ask a single creator of how they would feel about this change. And so when you do that, you learn that just because the data says something doesn't mean that everyone's going to be excited about that. And even could be the majority of people are not excited about that. So I always, uh, want to blend quantitative assessments with qualitative, uh, discussions with customers, prototyping, like things like that. You can't just do one of those things and expect. A fantastic outcome, a hundred percent of the time.

AI assessment note: “I almost never rely on gut... blend quantitative assessments with qualitative”

Q because otherwise I'll just completely, like, go off tangent, which is partly British, but whatever. Um, uh, so I want to start, I'm joking actually, Brits are very boring and structured, which is why I hate most of them. Um, but anyway, uh, uh, obviously it's 20 growth, and growth is misused, thrown around too much. How do you define growth and head of growth today? What's that to you?

A Yeah, I think you think you nailed it there. If I, if you ask 10 people, uh, about growth, you'd probably get 10 different answers. Um, and, uh, on this particular question. So I define growth as the function or functions that understand how a company grows, what levers they have to accelerate that speed and scale. And then can take a measured and tactical approach to testing out those levers, which helps them separate fact from fiction. The overall job of a growth function or a growth org is to connect more people to the value that the company is already creating. Get more people to attach, get more people to come back, things like that. So that's typically around acquisition, finding new customers, uh, retention, which is like activating and keeping those customers and monetization, which is turning those customers into money. Um, so those are sort of like, you're not like inventing things from whole cloth when you're doing growth, you're taking stuff that's already there and you're getting more people to, to touch it, to experience it, to build habits around it, et cetera. Um, and then like, yeah.

AI assessment note: “So I define growth as the function or functions that understand how a company grows”

Q Totally agree with you there, especially if it's a team of one, having a head of is, uh, rather ironic. Um, the question is, do you hire a tenured head of growth who can then build out their own team first, or do you hire younger growth reps, growth engineers, growth product people? What's the right decision? Growth leader or growth juniors?

A Yeah, I, I think that's a really, uh, it's highly variable. Um, it depends on a few factors. So the first thing I'd say is, do you have a growth model, uh, as a company have the leader, has the leadership team as the founder CEO done the work of understanding how does this business grow? What do our loops look like? What brings new people to the product? What keeps them around? What monetizes them? So that's like the starting point when you're evaluating. Secondly, then you have to ask yourself, based on this model, do we know what org functions and skills are necessary to iterate on this model and to test out our hypotheses? And then finally, my next question is sort of how involved does the founder want to be in running the team? Ideally, they want to stay very close and connected to the work, but sometimes they really don't. They want to be very hands-off. So If they, if those three things are true, um, then I recommend hiring someone around like the director level or a touch below that, uh, someone who wants to be a player coach. You can build processes for testing and iterating on the model. They can create a baseline of data if it doesn't exist. They're really good at communicating so they can share knowledge across the org and kind of start to build out that team. There's really is like a sweet spot here. To junior. And you just have a bunch of order takers that can't pr…

AI assessment note: “I recommend hiring someone around like the director level or a touch below that”

Q When we think about that positioning within the org, you know, we hear the hailed Facebook growth teams, which are obviously standalone and, you know, born in heaven. Um, and then, you know, there's other, there's other companies which integrate them very much into product or marketing or different functional areas. How do you think about the question of whether growth teams should be standalone or baked into existing functions?

A Yeah. And I guess it's a great question. And I, I, I think people have been really hard pressed to try to replicate the Facebook model to a T even people who come from Facebook sometimes struggle with that. Like it's never as clear cut. Right. So I think, uh, where people sit in the org also depends on the growth model and how you grow. So, uh, if you have an acquisition problem or retention problem, a monetization problem that can really tell you like where and how to focus. And then what your product does and what market you're in can really dictate the channels that are available to you for growth. For example, if your product should really be growing like virally via invitation, referral, collaboration, things like that, then you probably want to start with growth as part of the product work. Right. You want to have a product manager that oversees growth. If you've got fantastic retention, um, if you don't grow that way, maybe your best channels are in paid acquisition for growth, then you might prioritize growth in the marketing org. And you might try to find like a, a, a growth marketing hire or something like that. So it really like comes down to, um, you know, where, uh, where, where you put someone is dependent on how you, how you should be growing. One thing I'll add to this though, is. Org design is rarely static. As a leader, you've got to make sure that you communi…

AI assessment note: “where people sit in the org also depends on the growth model”

Q You're right. No, I, I totally agree with you there. Is that kind of it then, after those four stages? Is that kind of it? Do we have everything we need, and do we make the offer then?

A Yeah, I think like what I left out is this sort of like communication presentation stage. So you want to make sure that people can come in and maybe dissect a business that they like, talk about how it grows, and present an approach to changing it in plain language that a kindergartner could understand, because that's what they're going to have to do with the company, right? Um, and so like that, let's say they've nailed all of those things. I think Yes, it's time to get to an offer stage, but I think, like, then you may want to get in and do, like, a real hands-on exercise with someone as, like, the final step. So maybe that's, like, a multi-hour brainstorm or working through, like, a roadmap together, really seeing, like, how will they collaborate with you in a working session? Um, so that's a thing. And then, of course, I can't leave out my back channel references, right? Like, I'm constantly sleuthing. Connecting to people to try to find out. I mean, you do this as a VC, right? Like, uh, you, you gotta know the dirt on someone before you, before you hire them.

AI assessment note: “what I left out is this sort of like communication presentation stage”

Q Golf. Love it, love it. Um, I, I totally agree. Okay, so when we think about these new hires, how long do we give if we don't think it's working? Say it's 45 days in, you're like, yeah, the first month of relationship build didn't really go well.

A Yeah, yeah. Well, look, I think a lot of this depends on The person and the learning curve. So if they've done growth, but they're in a very new industry where they've never like worked in that space, the learning curve is going to be pretty steep. But I typically give people like, I'd give them that 90 days to find their footing and make solid recommendations and get, get alignment and maybe notch a few small wins in that time. But I think like one of the things that separates the good from the great is a lot of the best people that I've worked with, they come in on day one, and they've already been thinking about the business. They've got a plan. They've done some homework. They've done some learning up front. They're asking really thoughtful questions. Um, they've probably done this during the interview process, by the way, and they're moving fast because in growth, time is of the essence. So Like, if you're getting to 45, 60 days, and you're not seeing momentum, I'm not talking about, like, changing the trajectory of the company, because that's hard, right? But I'm talking about, like, there's a feeling that you can get that this person is working hard, and they're moving, and they're hungry to understand and build, and they're like, Chomping at the bit to get going. Um, if you're not feeling that like part of the way through that 90 days, it might be time for a conversatio…

AI assessment note: “I typically give people like, I'd give them that 90 days”

Q I think a big mistake that people make on something like that in particular, they feel that it has to be perfect. I, I, I'm not going to send it out this week because it, like, I would say it's better that it's not perfect, but goes out. Do you know what I mean?

A Yes. Ship it. The worst case is somebody reads it and they're like, I don't understand. And they write you back and they say, Hey, help clarify this. That's actually a good thing. They're giving you feedback. They want to know they're hungry for information. The last like thing that I would say, like a couple of final thoughts on communication. One It, you know, the old saying, a picture's worth a thousand words. I think like, I think a prototype is worth a whole chapter in a book. So I try to communicate with visual aids whenever possible. Um, like it's really important. Words on a page are great. A picture of what the thing is actually doing is even better. It's something that people can play with. That's one. And the second thing is I practice, I'm not going to say like radical Transparency, because I don't love this, the word like radical anything. Um, but I practice transparency, candor, and kindness in all of my communication. I find that it makes me much more likely to get feedback, which makes me better at communicating. It's sort of like a growth loop in itself. I communicate, people read it, they have feedback for me, and I make my communication better. And I still do that today.

AI assessment note: “Yes. Ship it. The worst case is somebody reads it”

Q authentic relationships, and I don't know if it's even, I don't even know if it's more productive, it's more fun. Um, so, yeah, um, listen, I do want to ask one other thing that I was told about your world-class skills, but someone mentioned your insane work on the Patreon rebrand. Tell me, what makes for a successful rebrand? What's required? And where do many go wrong, do you think?

A Yeah, I think the first thing I would say is there aren't a lot of growth leaders who come into a company and then realize that they need to rebrand and reposition the company because that's the main impediment to growth. Um, but that was the situation I found myself in after joining Patreon. Um, first I will say, like, I had a lot of guidance and help. I didn't know very much about branding, so I worked with somebody who had done a lot of repositioning. We paid someone to come in outside and kind of work one-on-one with me, and they were coaching and teaching me, as well as, like, leading workshops, providing some frameworks and things like that. So, like, don't assume that you know what you're doing. Ask for help. That's one. I learned a lot. I know a lot more about what I'm doing now. I could do this again myself, probably without the help. Um, the second thing is that when you're doing work around branding, um, and positioning, there's a lot of teammates who are skeptical that you need to do this work because they're thinking about the day to day and they're like, Hey, the business seems fine right now, but they're not necessarily doing the job of the growth leader, which is to look into the future and see that there's a ceiling that you're going to hit. It's not their job to do that. It's mine. So you have to bring everyone along for the ride, especially the CEO and the fo…

AI assessment note: “So, like, don't assume that you know what you're doing. Ask for help.”

Q What are the parallels between management and parenting?

A Clearly you read the article that I wrote about this. So, uh, they're the same, basically, uh, cultivating a growth mindset, providing choices, difficult conversations and empathy and collaboration, goal setting rewards. Like I always thought of myself as a great manager. And then I had kids and I realized that tiny humans are a lot harder to deal with than adults. And then I took a parenting class and I realized, wow, a lot of these managerial frameworks are the same things that they're telling us to do with our kids. So it's basically the same. I think it was an eyeopening experience for me that they're, you know, I don't think employees love to be referred to as your children, but, um, they kind of are right. So, uh, yeah, identical, I think parallels are like, they're one in the same.

AI assessment note: “cultivating a growth mindset, providing choices, difficult conversations and empathy and collaboration”

Q What are the parallels between management and parenting?

A Clearly you read the article that I wrote about this. So, uh, they're the same, basically, uh, cultivating a growth mindset, providing choices, difficult conversations and empathy and collaboration, goal setting rewards. Like I always thought of myself as a great manager. And then I had kids and I realized that tiny humans are a lot harder to deal with than adults. And then I took a parenting class and I realized, wow, a lot of these managerial frameworks are the same things that they're telling us to do with our kids. So it's basically the same. I think it was an eyeopening experience for me that they're, you know, I don't think employees love to be referred to as your children, but, um, they kind of are right. So, uh, yeah, identical, I think parallels are like, they're one in the same.

AI assessment note: “cultivating a growth mindset, providing choices, difficult conversations and empathy and collaboration”

Q want to dive into the hiring process, and so we're gonna, we're gonna take it in the slant that you took it with me, which is that director level, kind of the mid-tier, not super junior, not super senior, and we're gonna go with that. How do I literally structure the process, Adam? I've never hired a growth professional before. Can you just walk me through it from ground zero?

A Yeah. So, so first my take on this is, so I'm going to answer your question, but first I'm going to say that I have a little bit of a non-traditional answer for like the beginning part of this. Like, I try to interview people on the job, uh, especially leaders. Having gone through a bunch of executive interviews myself, probably like over a dozen times, um, I think that the traditional interview process for leaders is broken, uh, and the best way to learn about someone is really working side by side with them. I learned a ton about companies just from being an advisor and working with them one hour a week, way more than in my conversations leading up to that relationship. Um, however, you need to assess people in some way before you do that. So I'm going to like set my Adam hot take to the side for a second. And tell you about like how I would structure an actual interview process for, for those folks who like really want to do interviews, which I think is most people. So like, here, here's the, here's the steps. Pre-work is first. You need to understand what you need. If you're a founder and you've done your job and you have alignment around how you grow, basic growth model, what levers you have at your disposal, then you definitely have a sense for the types of skills and background that you might need. So like, don't hire a marketing person. When what you really need is a pr…

AI assessment note: “here's the steps. Pre-work is first. You need to understand what you need.”

Q want to dive into the hiring process, and so we're gonna, we're gonna take it in the slant that you took it with me, which is that director level, kind of the mid-tier, not super junior, not super senior, and we're gonna go with that. How do I literally structure the process, Adam? I've never hired a growth professional before. Can you just walk me through it from ground zero?

A Yeah. So, so first my take on this is, so I'm going to answer your question, but first I'm going to say that I have a little bit of a non-traditional answer for like the beginning part of this. Like, I try to interview people on the job, uh, especially leaders. Having gone through a bunch of executive interviews myself, probably like over a dozen times, um, I think that the traditional interview process for leaders is broken, uh, and the best way to learn about someone is really working side by side with them. I learned a ton about companies just from being an advisor and working with them one hour a week, way more than in my conversations leading up to that relationship. Um, however, you need to assess people in some way before you do that. So I'm going to like set my Adam hot take to the side for a second. And tell you about like how I would structure an actual interview process for, for those folks who like really want to do interviews, which I think is most people. So like, here, here's the, here's the steps. Pre-work is first. You need to understand what you need. If you're a founder and you've done your job and you have alignment around how you grow, basic growth model, what levers you have at your disposal, then you definitely have a sense for the types of skills and background that you might need. So like, don't hire a marketing person. When what you really need is a pr…

AI assessment note: “here's the steps. Pre-work is first. You need to understand what you need.”