The Exchanges

Q Ok, so you realize then you're a pretty good designer and you have this passion and love for product design. How does Snap come about? I heard this was a fun story. How did the Snap start happen?

A Yeah. So, I mean, you know, the, pursuing the masters is a good segue because I was, I was in the middle of my masters. I was actually going to need, you know, one summer and then, and then finish my masters program in the fall. But, um, in the course of that, I, I went and I interviewed at, at Snap, and I actually interviewed for an internship role. I was going to fill that summer between, you know, starting and finishing my masters, uh, with an internship. And, you know, at the time when I was interviewing, uh, Uh, it was the, I think it was December of 2013. And so, Snap was still a small company. It was probably about 25 people when I was interviewing. I flew down to LA. I went on a walk on, you know, along Venice Beach with Evan, and, um, through the course of the interview, he basically convinced me that I would not want to go back to school if I started at Snap. And, you know, the reason I was talking to Snap in the first place was because I saw that they were doing something special. You know, they had recently turned down a major acquisition offer. And, uh, that made me think they're, they have a vision, right? They, if you're turning down billions of dollars, it's because you know what you want to do. You have a big vision and you're going, you're pursuing it. And that really drew me to it. And over the course of this interview, Evan basically convinced me that I wasn…

AI assessment note: “I went and I interviewed at, at Snap, and I actually interviewed for an internship role”

Q are defined by constraints. That said, constraints can be fucking annoying. But yes, I totally get you. Before we dive into the actual workings, I am intrigued, and a horrible question, so forgive me for it, but when we think about, we've spoken about, kind of, different testing mechanisms, we've spoken about, kind of, ideation processes, is plot more art and science, and where do you sit on this debate?

A Yeah. You know, I, I love this question because I think you kind of have to get one thing out of the way, which is product can't possibly be all art or just all science, right? If product was only art, it would just be art. And if it were just science, it would just be science, but it's not, it's something different. And, you know, frankly, I think we can both agree. It's something that's more exciting. And, and I think my answer probably would surprise a lot of people. Who work with me because of how much I champion the importance of intuition and creativity within the product and design process. But I would say that's actually more science and maybe not for the, for the reasons you might think, but because I think it actually, the, the process of design and product resembles the scientific process far more than it resembles the artistic process. Um, and I can get Concrete there, right? The scientific method is you make an observation, something that's happening out in the world, and you form a hypothesis about what's happening, and then you create some experiments to test that hypothesis, and then you iterate until you feel like you've uncovered what's going on. Now, the design thinking process, which, you know, I use interchangeably with the, the product process, again, you know, coming from design, I kind of view everything through that lens. Is very similar. Instead of mak…

AI assessment note: “I would say that's actually more science”

Q Ok, so you realize then you're a pretty good designer and you have this passion and love for product design. How does Snap come about? I heard this was a fun story. How did the Snap start happen?

A Yeah. So, I mean, you know, the, pursuing the masters is a good segue because I was, I was in the middle of my masters. I was actually going to need, you know, one summer and then, and then finish my masters program in the fall. But, um, in the course of that, I, I went and I interviewed at, at Snap, and I actually interviewed for an internship role. I was going to fill that summer between, you know, starting and finishing my masters, uh, with an internship. And, you know, at the time when I was interviewing, uh, Uh, it was the, I think it was December of 2013. And so, Snap was still a small company. It was probably about 25 people when I was interviewing. I flew down to LA. I went on a walk on, you know, along Venice Beach with Evan, and, um, through the course of the interview, he basically convinced me that I would not want to go back to school if I started at Snap. And, you know, the reason I was talking to Snap in the first place was because I saw that they were doing something special. You know, they had recently turned down a major acquisition offer. And, uh, that made me think they're, they have a vision, right? They, if you're turning down billions of dollars, it's because you know what you want to do. You have a big vision and you're going, you're pursuing it. And that really drew me to it. And over the course of this interview, Evan basically convinced me that I wasn…

AI assessment note: “I interviewed at, at Snap, and I actually interviewed for an internship role”

Q are defined by constraints. That said, constraints can be fucking annoying. But yes, I totally get you. Before we dive into the actual workings, I am intrigued, and a horrible question, so forgive me for it, but when we think about, we've spoken about, kind of, different testing mechanisms, we've spoken about, kind of, ideation processes, is plot more art and science, and where do you sit on this debate?

A Yeah. You know, I, I love this question because I think you kind of have to get one thing out of the way, which is product can't possibly be all art or just all science, right? If product was only art, it would just be art. And if it were just science, it would just be science, but it's not, it's something different. And, you know, frankly, I think we can both agree. It's something that's more exciting. And, and I think my answer probably would surprise a lot of people. Who work with me because of how much I champion the importance of intuition and creativity within the product and design process. But I would say that's actually more science and maybe not for the, for the reasons you might think, but because I think it actually, the, the process of design and product resembles the scientific process far more than it resembles the artistic process. Um, and I can get Concrete there, right? The scientific method is you make an observation, something that's happening out in the world, and you form a hypothesis about what's happening, and then you create some experiments to test that hypothesis, and then you iterate until you feel like you've uncovered what's going on. Now, the design thinking process, which, you know, I use interchangeably with the, the product process, again, you know, coming from design, I kind of view everything through that lens. Is very similar. Instead of mak…

AI assessment note: “I would say that's actually more science and maybe not for the, for the reasons”

Q I want to start with your entry into the world of design. How did you make your way into the world of design first, Jack?

A Yeah, well, I'll take you way back for this one, because it really is kind of a, a life story more than anything. Finding myself and finding design, I think, kind of went hand in hand. But, you know, if I go back to just really, you know, like, elementary school, middle school, high school, and just kind of my academic experience, I found that, you know, I was always kind of okay at a lot of things, right? I, I could, I could do fine in every subject. But, I never felt like I truly excelled in one subject over others, and I actually had this, like, this envy for those that did. You know, the, the, the kids that were extremely good at math, or brilliant writers, or, you know, loved science, whatever it was, it just, I was envious of it, because it seemed like their, their path was charted for them. They knew what they wanted to do, they knew what they were great at, you know, they, they could go major in that thing in college, they could go do that thing for the rest of their career. And I just felt like, ah, you know, I kind of like a lot of these things. I'm okay at many of them, but I don't have one thing that I'm just great at. And so when I went to college, you know, I, I actually didn't really know what I was going to major in, and I stumbled upon product design, and I took this introductory class in product design, and I very quickly realized that the exciting thing about…

AI assessment note: “stumbled upon product design, and I took this introductory class in product design”

Q the new feature, and a week later I think, why did I ever use the home button on an iPhone before when I can simply swipe up? But I hated losing my home button. My question to you is, when change happens, consumers hate it, whether it's good or bad, but how do you know whether it's good change with delayed data or Bad change. And they just hate it.

A Yeah. It's a, it, it's a really good question. Consumers do generally hate change. It's hard, right? You have to change your habits. You have to do something. There's friction involved in, in changing the way that you use something. And, you know, for the most part, if you're not the one working at the company, really thinking about the long-term strategy in the details, making these decisions, and it's just, you know, thrown at you, that can be a little bit disconcerting. And, and so, You have to choose as an organization. Do you want your customers to hate the products you ship every time you do something drastically different? Or do you want the company to die, right? That's the choice you have in front of you. And so we always choose the former. Now, I think to answer your question directly, right? How do you know? And again, I think it comes back to being able to use these things internally and sit with them for a while, right? That can give you a level of confidence that, Hey, you know, We didn't like this thing at first either. It was hard to get used to. We had to change our habit. You know, this button went to the other side, whatever it might be, but we've been sitting with it for weeks and we understand that, you know, our curve of frustration versus value add has, has really changed over time. And so we can expect, we'll see the same thing out of the community. Now,…

AI assessment note: “use these things internally and sit with them for a while”

Q How do you literally do that, Jack? I, I love the idea of psychological safety. Nicely said, hard to do. How does one do that?

A I think it's, it's all about behaviors. I mean, you have to model it from the top and You have to encourage it all the way down, and so you have to reward people, right? When somebody brings an idea to the table, you have to thank them for that idea. You know, when somebody says something that goes against the grain, and you know that it probably took a little bit of courage to say that thing, you have to reward them for it, and you have to do that publicly, and you have to, you have to do it yourself. You know, one of my favorite things to do when I'm offering up an idea to a team is to preface it with the fact that, hey, this is a stupid idea. Because that just helps everybody realize that it's okay to share stupid ideas. Um, and you know, when other people are doing that, you just gotta let, you gotta give it room to breathe. And so I think there's no better way to create a culture of psychological safety than to make sure that you are rewarding people when they're taking risks, and you're doing that in a way that's public so other people see that it's okay.

AI assessment note: “preface it with the fact that, hey, this is a stupid idea.”

Q we know nothing about as a hobby. Um, but like, when you look at like, you know, Southeast Asia, China, Japan, their UIs are incredibly different to ours. They're noisy, they're very colorful, they're very Busy compared to much more simplistic, simple, but I would say beautiful framing that we have in Europe and North America. Can you have a universally appreciated UI design product with such divergent consumer preferences?

A No, I don't think you can. You can't be perfect. You can't be optimal everywhere. And so, you know, sometimes you have to decide to do something slightly different in a different market. And, you know, to make that decision, you have to feel like that market is valuable enough for you to go make the investments to differentiate your product there. But I would say certain things like the amount of, you know, teaching in the app, the language that's used, you know, like Those are things that are, are pretty cheap to, to distinguish in different markets. Now, other pieces of, of, you know, a product, like it's the core product value you're delivering. That's really difficult to change across markets. And so what we try to focus on are universal things, things that no matter where you are in the world, this is something that is going to be valuable. For example, you know, having conversations with Your closest friends and family, and empowering those conversations to be more fun, you know, more playful, more intimate, and safer, that's something that's universal. You know, no matter where you are in the world, if we can build an experience that makes that better, people are gonna love it.

AI assessment note: “No, I don't think you can. You can't be perfect.”

Q Which company product strategy do you most respect and admire? When you look around you at the companies that we have, where are you like, smart? They did really well, and I respect that product strategy.

A So I'll give you another maybe expected answer, uh, you know, given everything that's going on in the world. But I think the reason why I, I think it's so exciting is maybe different. So open AI, obviously it is, you know, the talk of the sound right now and for, for good reason. But I think what is so interesting about their strategy is that it really bucks convention, right? I am the first to tell you That you should not build a technology in search of a problem. You have to start with a problem. I've said that probably a thousand times throughout this podcast. But what's really interesting about what OpenAI has done is that they recognized that artificial intelligence as a technology is actually fundamentally different. You know, by nature, AI is non-deterministic. It's generative, right? Which is both what makes it so exciting and somewhat terrifying. But it means when you're investing deeply in building this technology, You don't know exactly where it's going to go. You don't know the exact outcomes, but they knew enough to know that investing in this and getting this technology good enough would be able to solve a myriad of problems. And, you know, I think they even surprised themselves with ChatGPT and how quickly they found product market fit, but that's the genius of their strategy. They invested everything they had in building a technology that they had conviction in …

AI assessment note: “So open AI, obviously it is, you know, the talk of the sound right now”

Q I told you don't look at the schedule because it's complete bullshit. How do you reduce that decision making cycle? Is it through testing markets like Australia and getting quick feedback before deploying to major markets? How do you shorten that decision making timeline and make it as comprehensive as possible where you get enough data, but also not too long where something bad can persist for too long?

A Yeah, you know, I mean, I think it comes down to really defining what level of fidelity you need in order to answer that question. Ultimately, what you're doing is you're building a prototype. You're doing a prototype to test the hypothesis to see if, you know, is this thing the right thing for us to do? And prototype is a really broad term, and there's so many different ways to build a prototype. Yes, you can build the production code. You can test it, you know, in a market like Australia and see How it's changing, you know, the metrics, how people are using it. You can also, you know, design a mock and have people look at it and get a sense of, you know, whether or not that thing feels right. You can build that in prototyping tools that are available today so that you can try it internally. That's probably our most active use of a prototype is, you know, our design team or design engineers will come together, come up with the concept. They'll build it in a way that we could never ship it. But they can get it done in, you know, a few hours rather than a few months. And we'll try it internally. And, you know, I think we've brought people in who have really strong product sense, really great intuition, intuition that's been informed over hundreds and hundreds of experiments over a long period of time. And you use that to validate that. So again, there's, there's a spectrum there…

AI assessment note: “comes down to really defining what level of fidelity you need”

Q Is that what Jeremy meant when he said to me about your approach to creating a repeatable process for product innovation?

A I think that that is probably what he was referring to. Yes. Um, and I think, you know, we can get a little bit more specific on that, which is there are certain elements to that process that are really important to define because there are things that can allow that process to be very successful. And there are things that can hold that process back. And I think the first thing to really think about an ingredient for success here is you kind of have to take a step back and you have to think about what is Creativity in the first place, because having a creative organization is table stakes for this repeatable process of innovation actually working. And, you know, somebody probably from some dictionary somewhere is going to come out and tell me that this is not the definition of, of, of creativity, but this is how I've always defined it, which is taking two distinct ideas and merging them together into something new. That is creativity in a nutshell. You know, no idea comes out of thin air. They're all built on different ideas. But what creates something novel is actually bringing these disparate ideas together. And so that, that's kind of like the, the foundation on which this entire system sits. But what's interesting is, you know, what is the best way to create an environment where you have a bunch of, you know, unique ideas coming together? And that's where the importance of …

AI assessment note: “I think that that is probably what he was referring to. Yes.”

Q When you think about the options that you have in front of you with ideas coming in, how do you think about a framework for prioritization when there's three that you could choose, but resource constraints mean that you can only do one? Is it like upside planning? Is it ease of execution? What is the fact that determines your choice?

A It's a combination of all of these things, right? Like, I would actually put a lot of this, you know, I would kind of bucket in, into three different areas. One is, you know, what is the potential impact, right? What is the opportunity size of doing this idea? Two is, what is the cost? What is the engineering cost? How much time will it take? How many resources to make it successful? And then there's this third bucket, which, you know, is kind of the art part of this whole thing, which is, What is your gut instinct into how important this is for our long-term vision or how much people are going to like it, you know, and, and that's a little bit of instinct. And so you have these three buckets and then you basically.

AI assessment note: “It's a combination of all of these things... bucket in, into three different areas”

Q Can I add one? Can I add one? Probability of outcome and execution. Like if it's a 95% that you will be able to do it versus a three percent flyer, it would also change decision-making processes.

A I think that's exactly right, you know, and I think a lot of that comes out in the, like, cost to build it, right? That can help you understand, you know, it's, it's not just about, um, you know, how long is it gonna take? It's about the opportunity cost, right? If we spend three months trying this, and we can't get it out the door, then, you know, that's three months wasted. And so, you've got those three buckets, and you, you have to apply relative weighting to them, right? High, medium, low impact. High, medium, low cost. High, medium, low gut feel. If something's high impact, low cost, high gut feel, build it yesterday. If it's, you know, low impact, high cost, forget about it. If it's somewhere in the middle, if I had a perfect answer for you, I, I'd spend, you know, half the amount of time at work. That's the hard part.

AI assessment note: “I think that's exactly right, you know, and I think a lot of that comes out”

Q I would say, can I ask you, Jack, one thing that came from my references on you was perfection. Um, you know, you're a great surfer. You're a fantastic father. You're a fantastic husband. You're an incredible product leader. Do you feel the pressure to keep everything perfect?

A Now you're just, you're sounding a lot like my therapist, and so I, you know, this is something I talk about a lot. I would not say that I, I have, you know, I would actually not consider myself a perfectionist by any means. I think that I obviously work really hard and across a bunch of different areas, and I try to be a good person, but I've found that the best way for me to at least get close to succeeding in multiple areas simultaneously is being okay with falling short Of perfect. And I will say that that has become more challenging, you know, especially in the last year, you know, we've, we've had a baby sky who's now almost one years old. Um, you know, the, the, you know, work is, is, is really something that I'm dedicating a lot of time and, and energy and passion to. And then of course I have my wife, Nicole, who, you know, is, you know, been in my life for 10 years and I want to make sure that, you know, her, everything is great all the time. And so I constantly feel this tension, you know, it's, if I'm not, If I'm not working, I feel some guilt that, you know, I could do more. And if I'm not with Sky or Nicole, I feel some guilt that, you know, I'm not doing enough for them. And so there's constant tension, there's constant pressure, but I think ultimately recognizing that you're going to have to fall short of perfect is the only way to really enjoy everything in the…

AI assessment note: “there's constant pressure, but I think ultimately recognizing that you're going to have to fall short”

Q What are the biggest hiring mistakes you've made? The biggest for me has always been, I, I've over-indexed on logos. I think young founders in particular do this. They kind of question their own judgments. They go, oh wow, you were at Pinterest and X before, and it gives us confidence. What are your biggest mistakes?

A I would say that the biggest mistake in hiring is actually not a mistake that leads you to hiring the wrong person. It's how you deal with the moments when you do hire the wrong person. Because, you know, interviewing is hard. It is not a perfect science. And we make mistakes. We all do. And, you know, I think sometimes the candidates make a mistake too. They think they want this job. Once they're there and they're working on it, they realize it's not a good fit for them for some reason, right? These things happen. So there's, there's, uh, you know, this, this kind of Risk on both sides of the equation. And so it's never gonna be perfect. So the biggest mistake you can make is when you bring somebody on who's not a good fit, not dealing with that quickly. Because have somebody who's not performing or not getting up to speed quickly enough becomes an anchor for the entire team. And, you know, I think one of the most impactful ways to make a team more efficient is to make sure that those low performers are moving on. Um, and that is a cycle that happens pretty quickly. When you hire somebody, you know pretty quickly whether or not they're going to have what it takes in that role. And so I think the biggest hiring mistake that, that, you know, many people make and that I myself have made in the past is not actually, you know, being decisive enough in those moments when you realize…

AI assessment note: “not being decisive enough in those moments when you realize it's not a good fit.”

Q Where is Snap not big today, but you think will be in the next few years, country-wise?

A You know, Japan has been a very interesting market for us. I've always thought that that is a market in which, you know, snap would really take off because there are certain elements to it. It's very visual. It's, you know, it's playful. The, the lenses that we offer in augmented reality is something that, you know, the, the Japanese market generally likes to, to really experiment with at the same time they have line, right? So they have, they have a product experience that they are using to communicate. All the time. And it's, you know, kind of saturated that market, but snap has always been able to overcome these other messaging services because it does it in such a different way. It offers visual communication, you know, that empowers a different type of, of conversation. And so I think that's a market where, you know, with enough focus, it's something that we can kind of take to the next stage.

AI assessment note: “Japan has been a very interesting market for us.”

Q How has becoming a parent changed your operating mindset?

A It's really clarified my priorities. I mean, I've got, I've got two things going on. You know, I've got work, and I've got my family. And I used to be a, you know, and still am in many ways, but I used to be a very restless soul. You know, I'd be sitting, uh, you know, at work, and I'd know it was, you know, great waves outside, and it's a beautiful day, and part of me would be like, ah, like, I wish I could surf right now. And now, there's none of that. It's like, You know, I'm working when I'm working, and I'm with my family when I'm with my family. So it's really clarified those things.

AI assessment note: “It's really clarified my priorities.”

Q Before we move to the one that failed. I'm fascinated. You mentioned the stories there. I obviously had Alex on from Meta, and him and Kevin Wilde were both like, yeah, it was a ripoff, like, when we did it. How do you guys feel and respond when you see a ripoff of a product that you created? I'm just interested.

A Yeah, no, it's a great question. I mean, I think that we've quickly become very comfortable with it. And we've recognized that this is going to be a reality. And I think more than anything, find it exceptionally motivating because not only does it validate all the work that you've done, but it also, you know, lights of fire under your ass to go continue innovating. Every single time we do something that then, that is then adopted across other platforms, you know, we recognize that, you know, we've hit something, right? Something within humanity That resonated and that's exciting, but it also, you know, makes you realize that you have to keep doing that over and over again. I think it's also helped us think about, you know, what are the things that we're really uniquely positioned to do? What are the things that, that really differentiate our platform? And, you know, while stories has, you know, been successful on other platforms, the way stories are used on Snapchat is still fundamentally different. It's still more raw, authentic in the moment content. There's less of this need to be, you know, pretty or perfect. And, you know, that makes the ethos of the platform fundamentally different. And that's because the way people use the platform is different from what they expect from, you know, other platforms. So I think we're, we're always looking to lean into those unique advantag…

AI assessment note: “we've quickly become very comfortable with it. And we've recognized that this is going to be a reality.”

Q When you think about the options that you have in front of you with ideas coming in, how do you think about a framework for prioritization when there's three that you could choose, but resource constraints mean that you can only do one? Is it like upside planning? Is it ease of execution? What is the fact that determines your choice?

A It's a combination of all of these things, right? Like, I would actually put a lot of this, you know, I would kind of bucket in, into three different areas. One is, you know, what is the potential impact, right? What is the opportunity size of doing this idea? Two is, what is the cost? What is the engineering cost? How much time will it take? How many resources to make it successful? And then there's this third bucket, which, you know, is kind of the art part of this whole thing, which is, What is your gut instinct into how important this is for our long-term vision or how much people are going to like it, you know, and, and that's a little bit of instinct. And so you have these three buckets and then you basically.

AI assessment note: “I would kind of bucket in, into three different areas. One is... potential impact”

Q we know nothing about as a hobby. Um, but like, when you look at like, you know, Southeast Asia, China, Japan, their UIs are incredibly different to ours. They're noisy, they're very colorful, they're very Busy compared to much more simplistic, simple, but I would say beautiful framing that we have in Europe and North America. Can you have a universally appreciated UI design product with such divergent consumer preferences?

A No, I don't think you can. You can't be perfect. You can't be optimal everywhere. And so, you know, sometimes you have to decide to do something slightly different in a different market. And, you know, to make that decision, you have to feel like that market is valuable enough for you to go make the investments to differentiate your product there. But I would say certain things like the amount of, you know, teaching in the app, the language that's used, you know, like Those are things that are, are pretty cheap to, to distinguish in different markets. Now, other pieces of, of, you know, a product, like it's the core product value you're delivering. That's really difficult to change across markets. And so what we try to focus on are universal things, things that no matter where you are in the world, this is something that is going to be valuable. For example, you know, having conversations with Your closest friends and family, and empowering those conversations to be more fun, you know, more playful, more intimate, and safer, that's something that's universal. You know, no matter where you are in the world, if we can build an experience that makes that better, people are gonna love it.

AI assessment note: “No, I don't think you can. You can't be perfect.”

Q What one piece of advice would you give to a product leader starting a new role today?

A Get vulnerable fast. You know, I think the most important thing to do when you're starting in a new role or in any role is to be willing to, to share your insecurities and your vulnerabilities because it then gives you the time and the space to learn and to grow because you're not going to be perfect day one. You're going to have to learn the environment. You're going to have to learn the people. You're going to have to learn the product. There's so many things you're going to have to learn in order to become good at what you do. And the more that you are open about the fact that you're not good yet, the more people will give you the feedback and the time and the space to get good.

AI assessment note: “Get vulnerable fast.”

Q I told you don't look at the schedule because it's complete bullshit. How do you reduce that decision making cycle? Is it through testing markets like Australia and getting quick feedback before deploying to major markets? How do you shorten that decision making timeline and make it as comprehensive as possible where you get enough data, but also not too long where something bad can persist for too long?

A Yeah, you know, I mean, I think it comes down to really defining what level of fidelity you need in order to answer that question. Ultimately, what you're doing is you're building a prototype. You're doing a prototype to test the hypothesis to see if, you know, is this thing the right thing for us to do? And prototype is a really broad term, and there's so many different ways to build a prototype. Yes, you can build the production code. You can test it, you know, in a market like Australia and see How it's changing, you know, the metrics, how people are using it. You can also, you know, design a mock and have people look at it and get a sense of, you know, whether or not that thing feels right. You can build that in prototyping tools that are available today so that you can try it internally. That's probably our most active use of a prototype is, you know, our design team or design engineers will come together, come up with the concept. They'll build it in a way that we could never ship it. But they can get it done in, you know, a few hours rather than a few months. And we'll try it internally. And, you know, I think we've brought people in who have really strong product sense, really great intuition, intuition that's been informed over hundreds and hundreds of experiments over a long period of time. And you use that to validate that. So again, there's, there's a spectrum there…

AI assessment note: “it comes down to really defining what level of fidelity you need”

Q Is that what Jeremy meant when he said to me about your approach to creating a repeatable process for product innovation?

A I think that that is probably what he was referring to. Yes. Um, and I think, you know, we can get a little bit more specific on that, which is there are certain elements to that process that are really important to define because there are things that can allow that process to be very successful. And there are things that can hold that process back. And I think the first thing to really think about an ingredient for success here is you kind of have to take a step back and you have to think about what is Creativity in the first place, because having a creative organization is table stakes for this repeatable process of innovation actually working. And, you know, somebody probably from some dictionary somewhere is going to come out and tell me that this is not the definition of, of, of creativity, but this is how I've always defined it, which is taking two distinct ideas and merging them together into something new. That is creativity in a nutshell. You know, no idea comes out of thin air. They're all built on different ideas. But what creates something novel is actually bringing these disparate ideas together. And so that, that's kind of like the, the foundation on which this entire system sits. But what's interesting is, you know, what is the best way to create an environment where you have a bunch of, you know, unique ideas coming together? And that's where the importance of …

AI assessment note: “I think that that is probably what he was referring to. Yes.”

Q How do you literally do that, Jack? I, I love the idea of psychological safety. Nicely said, hard to do. How does one do that?

A I think it's, it's all about behaviors. I mean, you have to model it from the top and You have to encourage it all the way down, and so you have to reward people, right? When somebody brings an idea to the table, you have to thank them for that idea. You know, when somebody says something that goes against the grain, and you know that it probably took a little bit of courage to say that thing, you have to reward them for it, and you have to do that publicly, and you have to, you have to do it yourself. You know, one of my favorite things to do when I'm offering up an idea to a team is to preface it with the fact that, hey, this is a stupid idea. Because that just helps everybody realize that it's okay to share stupid ideas. Um, and you know, when other people are doing that, you just gotta let, you gotta give it room to breathe. And so I think there's no better way to create a culture of psychological safety than to make sure that you are rewarding people when they're taking risks, and you're doing that in a way that's public so other people see that it's okay.

AI assessment note: “you have to model it from the top and You have to encourage it”

Q Can I add one? Can I add one? Probability of outcome and execution. Like if it's a 95% that you will be able to do it versus a three percent flyer, it would also change decision-making processes.

A I think that's exactly right, you know, and I think a lot of that comes out in the, like, cost to build it, right? That can help you understand, you know, it's, it's not just about, um, you know, how long is it gonna take? It's about the opportunity cost, right? If we spend three months trying this, and we can't get it out the door, then, you know, that's three months wasted. And so, you've got those three buckets, and you, you have to apply relative weighting to them, right? High, medium, low impact. High, medium, low cost. High, medium, low gut feel. If something's high impact, low cost, high gut feel, build it yesterday. If it's, you know, low impact, high cost, forget about it. If it's somewhere in the middle, if I had a perfect answer for you, I, I'd spend, you know, half the amount of time at work. That's the hard part.

AI assessment note: “I think that's exactly right, you know, and I think a lot of that comes out”

Q I would say, can I ask you, Jack, one thing that came from my references on you was perfection. Um, you know, you're a great surfer. You're a fantastic father. You're a fantastic husband. You're an incredible product leader. Do you feel the pressure to keep everything perfect?

A Now you're just, you're sounding a lot like my therapist, and so I, you know, this is something I talk about a lot. I would not say that I, I have, you know, I would actually not consider myself a perfectionist by any means. I think that I obviously work really hard and across a bunch of different areas, and I try to be a good person, but I've found that the best way for me to at least get close to succeeding in multiple areas simultaneously is being okay with falling short Of perfect. And I will say that that has become more challenging, you know, especially in the last year, you know, we've, we've had a baby sky who's now almost one years old. Um, you know, the, the, you know, work is, is, is really something that I'm dedicating a lot of time and, and energy and passion to. And then of course I have my wife, Nicole, who, you know, is, you know, been in my life for 10 years and I want to make sure that, you know, her, everything is great all the time. And so I constantly feel this tension, you know, it's, if I'm not, If I'm not working, I feel some guilt that, you know, I could do more. And if I'm not with Sky or Nicole, I feel some guilt that, you know, I'm not doing enough for them. And so there's constant tension, there's constant pressure, but I think ultimately recognizing that you're going to have to fall short of perfect is the only way to really enjoy everything in the…

AI assessment note: “there's constant tension, there's constant pressure, but I think ultimately recognizing”

Q What are the biggest hiring mistakes you've made? The biggest for me has always been, I, I've over-indexed on logos. I think young founders in particular do this. They kind of question their own judgments. They go, oh wow, you were at Pinterest and X before, and it gives us confidence. What are your biggest mistakes?

A I would say that the biggest mistake in hiring is actually not a mistake that leads you to hiring the wrong person. It's how you deal with the moments when you do hire the wrong person. Because, you know, interviewing is hard. It is not a perfect science. And we make mistakes. We all do. And, you know, I think sometimes the candidates make a mistake too. They think they want this job. Once they're there and they're working on it, they realize it's not a good fit for them for some reason, right? These things happen. So there's, there's, uh, you know, this, this kind of Risk on both sides of the equation. And so it's never gonna be perfect. So the biggest mistake you can make is when you bring somebody on who's not a good fit, not dealing with that quickly. Because have somebody who's not performing or not getting up to speed quickly enough becomes an anchor for the entire team. And, you know, I think one of the most impactful ways to make a team more efficient is to make sure that those low performers are moving on. Um, and that is a cycle that happens pretty quickly. When you hire somebody, you know pretty quickly whether or not they're going to have what it takes in that role. And so I think the biggest hiring mistake that, that, you know, many people make and that I myself have made in the past is not actually, you know, being decisive enough in those moments when you realize…

AI assessment note: “I myself have made in the past is not actually, you know, being decisive enough”

Q I once heard that if you're doing hiring right, you get it right. 50% of the time. What would you say your right ratio is?

A That's a really good question. You know, I think that's about right, by the way, you know, I think that you're, you're going to, to get it wrong about 50% of the time. Now that doesn't mean 50% of the people you hire aren't going to work out, but I will say about 50% of the people we hire end up changing their role or tweaking it or working on something slightly different because Over time, we realize that there's a better fit within that. Um, I would say that for the most part, you know, the people we hire will stick around for a while because, you know, I think we have a good sense of, of what makes somebody successful at Snap, but of course, we're never perfect there, and I do think that, that 50% mark is, is probably at least a good, good one to strive for.

AI assessment note: “I think that's about right, by the way... get it wrong about 50% of the time”

Q I want to move to the future, because I could talk to you all day. Tell me, uh, there's a couple of different elements in particular. Developing world. It's not one that, like, Snap has focused explicitly on, uh, really before. How do you think about the developing world today from a product strategy perspective?

A Yeah, you know, it, it certainly has been a focus for us over the, the, the last, you know, five years or so. In, in 2018, you know, we took on this project to Basically rewrite the entire Android app from scratch. Because, you know, obviously when you're looking at, you know, the rest of the world, most people are using Android devices. You know, in the US, and especially in the US for early adopters of Snap, the vast majority of them were using an iPhone. And so our app was, was largely designed and, and, and, you know, most performant on an iPhone. And that meant that we had made our product unintentionally very difficult to use or frustrating to use or inaccessible for the majority of the world. And so in 2018, we realized that the tech debt that we had built up over time, building all of these features, innovating as quickly as we had, had just built up to the point where the app was basically unusable. Now, the really exciting thing in that moment of time was that There were millions of people across the world still using Snap in spite of how difficult it was to do something as simple as open the app and wait for it to load and start up. So we rebuilt it from scratch. And, you know, because of that, we saw a huge acceleration in adoption across the world. And so I think that was a really key learning for us as an organization that, you know, how accessible your product is…

AI assessment note: “we took on this project to Basically rewrite the entire Android app from scratch.”

Q Where is Snap not big today, but you think will be in the next few years, country-wise?

A You know, Japan has been a very interesting market for us. I've always thought that that is a market in which, you know, snap would really take off because there are certain elements to it. It's very visual. It's, you know, it's playful. The, the lenses that we offer in augmented reality is something that, you know, the, the Japanese market generally likes to, to really experiment with at the same time they have line, right? So they have, they have a product experience that they are using to communicate. All the time. And it's, you know, kind of saturated that market, but snap has always been able to overcome these other messaging services because it does it in such a different way. It offers visual communication, you know, that empowers a different type of, of conversation. And so I think that's a market where, you know, with enough focus, it's something that we can kind of take to the next stage.

AI assessment note: “Japan has been a very interesting market for us. I've always thought”