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Apr 9, 2018 · 22m · mad

Building a Data Company // Jonathan Levin, Chainalysis (FirstMark's Data Driven)

Jonathan Levin · 17m spoken Matt Turck · 1m spoken
0:00 / 0:00
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gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions

Jonathan Levin, Co-founder and COO of Chainalysis, details how his company built a competitive data business by transforming public, raw blockchain transactions into actionable intelligence for financial institutions, compliance teams, and law enforcement.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Matt holds 5.9% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

Matt as informed peer 1.3 Guest teaching 1.3 Guest disagreement 0.3 Matt pushing back 0.6
05100:0010:0020:000:00–3:13 · Matt as informed peer 0/10 FirstMark Event Title and Speaker Roster This segment is a monologue presentation by guest Jonathan Levin introducing Chainalysis and its history. The host does not speak or intervene during this section.3:13–5:26 · Matt as informed peer 0/10 Entity Identification via Clustering, Attribution, and Learning Jonathan Levin continues his solo presentation detailing transaction clustering, real-world attribution, and machine learning on blockchain data. The host remains silent throughout the segment.5:26–7:34 · Matt as informed peer 0/10 First-Mover Advantage in Historical Transaction Capture Levin delivers a monologue explaining the first-mover data advantage and why historical interaction with dying services is required to build a complete attribution dataset. The host does not speak.7:34–12:49 · Matt as informed peer 0/10 Advanced Blockchain Analysis and Commercial Applications Levin concludes his stage presentation discussing advanced transaction fee patterns, multi-chain coverage, and target customer profiles. The host is not involved during this monologue segment.12:49–15:33 · Matt as informed peer 3/10 Q&A: Financial Institution Adoption and Regulatory Compliance Host Matt Turck joins on stage and asks about financial institution adoption and whether compliance efforts fall under KYC/AML frameworks. Levin cooperatively confirms and explains the compliance timeline.15:33–18:20 · Matt as informed peer 5/10 Audience Q&A: Blockchain Architecture and Data Storage Matt Turck challenges Levin with what he calls a 'hardball question' about ZK-Snarks threatening Chainalysis's business model. Levin lightheartedly re-frames it as a 'softball question', explaining why zero-knowledge tech is a red herring for institutional adoption.18:20–21:07 · Matt as informed peer 1/10 Audience Q&A: Bitcoin Fungibility and Illicit Taint Host Matt Turck acts strictly as a session moderator passing questions to audience members regarding fungibility, money laundering, and data vetting. Levin answers the audience questions directly and politely.0:00–3:13 · Guest teaching 0/10 FirstMark Event Title and Speaker Roster This segment is a monologue presentation by guest Jonathan Levin introducing Chainalysis and its history. The host does not speak or intervene during this section.3:13–5:26 · Guest teaching 0/10 Entity Identification via Clustering, Attribution, and Learning Jonathan Levin continues his solo presentation detailing transaction clustering, real-world attribution, and machine learning on blockchain data. The host remains silent throughout the segment.5:26–7:34 · Guest teaching 0/10 First-Mover Advantage in Historical Transaction Capture Levin delivers a monologue explaining the first-mover data advantage and why historical interaction with dying services is required to build a complete attribution dataset. The host does not speak.7:34–12:49 · Guest teaching 0/10 Advanced Blockchain Analysis and Commercial Applications Levin concludes his stage presentation discussing advanced transaction fee patterns, multi-chain coverage, and target customer profiles. The host is not involved during this monologue segment.12:49–15:33 · Guest teaching 3/10 Q&A: Financial Institution Adoption and Regulatory Compliance Host Matt Turck joins on stage and asks about financial institution adoption and whether compliance efforts fall under KYC/AML frameworks. Levin cooperatively confirms and explains the compliance timeline.15:33–18:20 · Guest teaching 4/10 Audience Q&A: Blockchain Architecture and Data Storage Matt Turck challenges Levin with what he calls a 'hardball question' about ZK-Snarks threatening Chainalysis's business model. Levin lightheartedly re-frames it as a 'softball question', explaining why zero-knowledge tech is a red herring for institutional adoption.18:20–21:07 · Guest teaching 2/10 Audience Q&A: Bitcoin Fungibility and Illicit Taint Host Matt Turck acts strictly as a session moderator passing questions to audience members regarding fungibility, money laundering, and data vetting. Levin answers the audience questions directly and politely.0:00–3:13 · Guest disagreement 0/10 FirstMark Event Title and Speaker Roster This segment is a monologue presentation by guest Jonathan Levin introducing Chainalysis and its history. The host does not speak or intervene during this section.3:13–5:26 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Entity Identification via Clustering, Attribution, and Learning Jonathan Levin continues his solo presentation detailing transaction clustering, real-world attribution, and machine learning on blockchain data. The host remains silent throughout the segment.5:26–7:34 · Guest disagreement 0/10 First-Mover Advantage in Historical Transaction Capture Levin delivers a monologue explaining the first-mover data advantage and why historical interaction with dying services is required to build a complete attribution dataset. The host does not speak.7:34–12:49 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Advanced Blockchain Analysis and Commercial Applications Levin concludes his stage presentation discussing advanced transaction fee patterns, multi-chain coverage, and target customer profiles. The host is not involved during this monologue segment.12:49–15:33 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Q&A: Financial Institution Adoption and Regulatory Compliance Host Matt Turck joins on stage and asks about financial institution adoption and whether compliance efforts fall under KYC/AML frameworks. Levin cooperatively confirms and explains the compliance timeline.15:33–18:20 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Audience Q&A: Blockchain Architecture and Data Storage Matt Turck challenges Levin with what he calls a 'hardball question' about ZK-Snarks threatening Chainalysis's business model. Levin lightheartedly re-frames it as a 'softball question', explaining why zero-knowledge tech is a red herring for institutional adoption.18:20–21:07 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Audience Q&A: Bitcoin Fungibility and Illicit Taint Host Matt Turck acts strictly as a session moderator passing questions to audience members regarding fungibility, money laundering, and data vetting. Levin answers the audience questions directly and politely.0:00–3:13 · Matt pushing back 0/10 FirstMark Event Title and Speaker Roster This segment is a monologue presentation by guest Jonathan Levin introducing Chainalysis and its history. The host does not speak or intervene during this section.3:13–5:26 · Matt pushing back 0/10 Entity Identification via Clustering, Attribution, and Learning Jonathan Levin continues his solo presentation detailing transaction clustering, real-world attribution, and machine learning on blockchain data. The host remains silent throughout the segment.5:26–7:34 · Matt pushing back 0/10 First-Mover Advantage in Historical Transaction Capture Levin delivers a monologue explaining the first-mover data advantage and why historical interaction with dying services is required to build a complete attribution dataset. The host does not speak.7:34–12:49 · Matt pushing back 0/10 Advanced Blockchain Analysis and Commercial Applications Levin concludes his stage presentation discussing advanced transaction fee patterns, multi-chain coverage, and target customer profiles. The host is not involved during this monologue segment.12:49–15:33 · Matt pushing back 0/10 Q&A: Financial Institution Adoption and Regulatory Compliance Host Matt Turck joins on stage and asks about financial institution adoption and whether compliance efforts fall under KYC/AML frameworks. Levin cooperatively confirms and explains the compliance timeline.15:33–18:20 · Matt pushing back 4/10 Audience Q&A: Blockchain Architecture and Data Storage Matt Turck challenges Levin with what he calls a 'hardball question' about ZK-Snarks threatening Chainalysis's business model. Levin lightheartedly re-frames it as a 'softball question', explaining why zero-knowledge tech is a red herring for institutional adoption.18:20–21:07 · Matt pushing back 0/10 Audience Q&A: Bitcoin Fungibility and Illicit Taint Host Matt Turck acts strictly as a session moderator passing questions to audience members regarding fungibility, money laundering, and data vetting. Levin answers the audience questions directly and politely.

speaking balance: gold is Matt, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · Matt 0% · guest 100%0:00 · Matt 0% · guest 100%3:00 · Matt 0% · guest 100%3:00 · Matt 0% · guest 100%6:00 · Matt 0% · guest 100%6:00 · Matt 0% · guest 100%9:00 · Matt 0% · guest 100%9:00 · Matt 0% · guest 100%12:00 · Matt 19% · guest 81%12:00 · Matt 19% · guest 81%15:00 · Matt 9.8% · guest 90.2%15:00 · Matt 9.8% · guest 90.2%18:00 · Matt 3.2% · guest 96.8%18:00 · Matt 3.2% · guest 96.8%21:00 · Matt 38% · guest 62%21:00 · Matt 38% · guest 62%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 17:16 Softball reframe

When host Matt Turck introduces a ZK-Snarks question as a hardball challenge to Chainalysis, Levin playfully rejects the framing by asserting it is actually a softball question.

 Hardest push from Matt ▶ 17:01 ZK-Snarks threat question

Host Matt Turck explicitly challenges Levin on potential core business disruption, posing a hardball question on how zero-knowledge privacy tech affects Chainalysis.

 Biggest teaching moment ▶ 17:24 ZK-Snarks red herring breakdown

Levin educates the host and audience on why ZK-Snarks privacy tech is functionally a red herring for institutional adoption due to regulatory identity requirements.

 Matt holds his own ▶ 17:01 Informed ZK-Snarks inquiry

Matt Turck demonstrates domain knowledge by raising ZK-Snarks and zero-knowledge cryptography as a potential challenge to blockchain data analytics platforms.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicMatt as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementMatt pushing backWhy
FirstMark Event Title and Speaker Roster 0000 This segment is a monologue presentation by guest Jonathan Levin introducing Chainalysis and its history. The host does not speak or intervene during this section.
Entity Identification via Clustering, Attribution, and Learning 0000 Jonathan Levin continues his solo presentation detailing transaction clustering, real-world attribution, and machine learning on blockchain data. The host remains silent throughout the segment.
First-Mover Advantage in Historical Transaction Capture 0000 Levin delivers a monologue explaining the first-mover data advantage and why historical interaction with dying services is required to build a complete attribution dataset. The host does not speak.
Advanced Blockchain Analysis and Commercial Applications 0000 Levin concludes his stage presentation discussing advanced transaction fee patterns, multi-chain coverage, and target customer profiles. The host is not involved during this monologue segment.
Q&A: Financial Institution Adoption and Regulatory Compliance 3300 Host Matt Turck joins on stage and asks about financial institution adoption and whether compliance efforts fall under KYC/AML frameworks. Levin cooperatively confirms and explains the compliance timeline.
Audience Q&A: Blockchain Architecture and Data Storage 5424 Matt Turck challenges Levin with what he calls a 'hardball question' about ZK-Snarks threatening Chainalysis's business model. Levin lightheartedly re-frames it as a 'softball question', explaining why zero-knowledge tech is a red herring for institutional adoption.
Audience Q&A: Bitcoin Fungibility and Illicit Taint 1200 Host Matt Turck acts strictly as a session moderator passing questions to audience members regarding fungibility, money laundering, and data vetting. Levin answers the audience questions directly and politely.

Statements from this episode (8)

Assertion Supported
Chainalysis was contracted by the trustee to investigate Mt. Gox
“We started with, like, the Mt. Gox investigation. Probably some people in this room lost money in Mt. Gox I can imagine. And, you know, we went looking for where it went, and, you know, were contracted by the trustee to look into that and actually built some i…”
Jonathan Levin Apr 9, 2018 ▶ 1:00
Insight
Levin: Blockchains are engineered for consistency, not actionable intelligence
“Blockchains are engineered for consistency. They want to tell the truth all the time but not necessarily to, like, yield intelligence.”
Jonathan Levin Apr 9, 2018 ▶ 3:24
Insight
Bitcoin entity attribution requires active network participation during the original transactions
“Actually, you need to be there at the time making transactions on the Bitcoin network in order to get attribution data on, you know you know, is this a gambling site or is this a darknet market?”
Jonathan Levin Apr 9, 2018 ▶ 7:23
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Chainalysis tracks roughly 80% of transacted Bitcoin value involving known entities
“So, you know, we roughly track around 80% of the value being transacted on the Bitcoin network where we can identify, you know, one of the sides of, ah, of the transaction.”
Jonathan Levin Apr 9, 2018 ▶ 8:00
Insight
Blockchain analytics first movers have a data moat latecomers cannot replicate
“Even if that data is preserved forever no one will be able to amass the same dataset if you're the first mover into that space.”
Jonathan Levin Apr 9, 2018 ▶ 11:29
Insight
Levin: Financial institutions won't enter crypto until compliance teams lead
“There is no way that institutions are actually going to get into this space until the compliance team actually leads from the front.”
Jonathan Levin Apr 9, 2018 ▶ 15:13
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Investors ignore ZK-Snarks because standard crypto exchanges provide sufficient practical privacy
“Institutional money and retail investors actually don't choose to use that type of privacy-enhanced technology at the moment because they actually have a good deal of privacy afforded to them By the services that they are using, even within Bitcoin.”
Jonathan Levin Apr 9, 2018 ▶ 17:35
Disclosure
Chainalysis clusters Bitcoin entities using wallet software fingerprints and protocol structure
“A lot of it's much more about like the structural nature of the Bitcoin blockchain. Actually the wallet that is crafting these transactions leaves fingerprints That we can basically pick up on.”
Jonathan Levin Apr 9, 2018 ▶ 21:48
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