The Exchanges

Q What's the general structure? If someone's trying to think about how these things work, if they want to join these as we go through it, how did they work?

A Okay. So you apply at phil.org, P-H-Y-L, phil with Y, and it, again, it's free and we match you behind the scenes. Now, when you apply, we ask, first of all, are you in a job and looking or are you out of work? Because we separate those two because they have different cadences. If you're in a job and looking, we call you a slow seeker because you have a full-time job and you can't work as quickly. If you're out of work and looking, we call you a fast seeker and we put you in different groups. Okay. Fast seeker or slow seeker. We also ask though, are you willing to be a moderator? Every council needs a moderator and every moderator is a job seeker who volunteers to do that. And if you, and if you volunteer to moderate, first of all, you get matched faster. And secondly, you get more training and support. It's not, it's a little bit more work for a lot more benefit. And we've, you know, we've gotten 2000 moderators. It's amazing. And we feel like we're just beginning. Okay. So that's you. So you apply, you get matched, and then you go through an orientation program that we run live, where we answer, we tell you how this works and what to expect in your first meeting. And then there's a whole set of agendas. And materials and everything in the book, as well as we have a, everyone gets a free workbook, a hundred page workbook after they join the community with all of the templates …

AI assessment note: “So you apply, you get matched, and then you go through an orientation program”

Q Um, there's a lot of ways I can approach this. I want to start with a question about something that you run, something that you created, something that has had a lot of impact on a lot of people, job search councils. What is a job search council?

A It's a support group of six to eight job seekers, right? So product people, and it's not just for product people, but the product community really owns this. It comes out of the product community. And what they do is they commit to being with each other, to supporting each other, go through the process of looking for a job and figuring out some of the, and I lay out a methodology, how to figure out your candidate market fit. One of the big concepts in the book. As well as how to play to win, not, not to lose You know what I mean? People are scared in the job search. Here's the thing, Lenny, that people really have a hard time, really have a hard time believing. Everyone. I mean, everyone. And you know, I work with some of the most senior people in Silicon Valley. I'm talking about CEOs of public companies. I'm talking about chief product officers, VPs of product at great brands, everyone, no matter who they are, Lenny. Feels insecure and anxious in the job search. And if you do it alone, it magnifies it. So in job search councils, there there's this great hack. I didn't invent this. It's baked into human psychology. If you put anxious people together and ask them to be open and vulnerable and to ask for help, and we'll come back to asking for help. It actually flips the anxiety. In the fear, into hope, into motivation, into accountability and confidence. It's like, what? It's f…

AI assessment note: “It's a support group of six to eight job seekers”

Q Oh my God. Sounds incredible. Great, great choice. Do you have a favorite life motto that you often like to think back to and share with friends or family?

A Of course, we've talked about asking for help. And I say that a lot, but I also love, and I said this earlier, books are machines to think with. And as product people, Marty and I talk about this all the time. We have to be thinking. And if we, and people, and I coach people, I'll say, how can I think more? You've got to read more because books are machines to think with good books. There's a lot of bad books in the business world, but good books, you know, good books, thoughtful books, books that'll help and shift your perspective, whether it's history or science. Like I, we, I read widely and I want you to do the same, you know, um, books are machines to think with. That's, that's, that's probably one of my greatest life goals.

AI assessment note: “books are machines to think with”

Q So we've talked about When to ask for help a little bit, what are just like a couple tips for how to do it? Well, like, you know, if people come to me and like, Hey, can you look at this email? I'd be like, no, I'm really, I'm pretty busy. I don't know if I have time to look at an email.

A I have to think about the relationship, right? Like again, again, showing that this random small software company wanted to talk to Marissa Meyer. I didn't know them. They didn't know me and they didn't know Marissa. Like that's not gonna happen. Right. Lenny, if your mom, you know, or, you know, your close friend or your colleague who you work closely with says, I want you to look at this email. You're going to respond in one way. If, if some person, you know, let's say in your podcast community, which is great, wants you to do it. I mean, you know, you have thousands of people there. You can't do that. And people come to me for job search advice in the job search community. I said, I can't, I can't do that. I can't scale that. That's what the job search council and the slack community is there for. You know, I appreciate you asking, but you know, that that's, that's what the deal is there. You got to think about the relationship. You you've got to understand, listen to your emotions. This is where again, emotions are really important for decision-making. If your emotions are telling you, I don't know if I trust this person, don't, don't get all open and vulnerable with them. You know, I want you to learn to ask for help in a council format where it's really safe. You can flail around, you know, you can ask in Fokakta ways, you know, there's, there's ways to ask for help where…

AI assessment note: “You got to think about the relationship. You you've got to understand, listen to your emotions.”

Q your team. Get access to All of Dovetail's latest AI features on their professional plan. And the best news is that listeners of this podcast can get an exclusive, thirty-day Dovetail Pro trial today. Just go to Dovetail.com slash Lenny. That's dovetail.com slash Lenny. While we're on this topic of negotiation and comp, is there anything else there that you might want to share that might be helpful to people?

A In the book, before you do the listening tour, I ask people to do what I call the gratitude house exercise, which is to think about who are all the people in your life who have helped you get to where you are today. I mean, you could talk about your third grade teacher, you know what I mean? Like I'm just talking on, I just want you to do that. And I want you to do that because everyone has this idea that they're alone. We have all received enormous help to do what we're doing. What, whoever we are that, you know, even, even the Kermit and the Deather was born to a mother. Okay. And they did not make it themselves for the first several years of their lives. Right. We all are born of mothers. We all are born as families and communities, some better or worse. I had a pretty tough childhood, but you know, there was love and. And I want you to do that gratitude house exercise, and then it can sometimes surface people that you'll go talk to in the listening tour. You might not talk to your third grade teacher, but you'll go talk to some. Now, when you're going into interview. I, I ask people to take a moment and re reflect, reread the gratitude house exercise, remind themselves of everyone they're carrying with them to imagine that they're on your shoulders. All of those people, including your job search counsel, of course, and everyone you've talked to, you're listening to, or you'…

AI assessment note: “I ask people to do what I call the gratitude house exercise”

Q Yeah, exactly. Um, okay, so I'm thinking through this list here, so I think, so level and role, I imagine people kind of get a pretty good sense of where they want to be. Stage. Any advice for someone to decide what stage is right for them?

A I mean, if I were coaching someone, which as you know, I do, we would, we would talk a lot about this, but when I'm in the book and in the community, I say to figure out stage again, I want you to rely on your job search counsel and your network and your own experience. Right. And it becomes pretty, people usually have a pretty good sense. Like who was I talking to recently? Like, you know, I just, I need, I need a big, you know. Whereas many people are like, I don't want that. I want a startup. Okay. And what I will tell you is that one thing to keep in mind right now is that there are more jobs in the startup world than there are in the established company. Okay. In the tech world for product people, that's where new job creation has been happening. It's slower than it was before, but it's the big companies. They've just been shedding people. They've just been, you know, throwing them off. Right. Whereas the smaller companies, there's more opportunity there. Now that doesn't mean that if, that you can't, if you can't stand working at a startup, you should, I'm not telling you, you should go there necessarily, but I will say this. And again, if you need to put food on the table, Right. Like we were talking to someone recently, they were, they, they had moved to a new city and then were laid off the next day. They moved for the company and then they were laid off the next day. …

AI assessment note: “what I will tell you is that one thing to keep in mind right now”