The Exchanges

Q What are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?

A Oh, so Nathaniel Philbrook's Heart of the Sea, which is a nonfiction account of the whale ship Essex, which is the, uh, the origin of the idea for Moby Dick. The sinking of the Essex is what gave Melville the idea for Moby Dick. It's an extraordinary nonfiction account of the whale ship Essex. So that book for sure. If you have children, but even if you don't, cause this is one of those Children's books that reads well for, um, adults as Kate DiCamillo's, uh, The Tale of Despereaux. It's a young adult novel. It'll take you two hours to read. I've read it 20 times. It is beautiful and extraordinary and fantastic. And then anything by Jessie Klein. Just go, she has two books. The only thing I don't like about her is she only has two books. Actually, Sedaris do. Jessie Klein and David Sedaris. Go read those two people too. I'm actually right now reading Banford's book, the comedian, what's her first name? Banford. I have Amy stuck in my head for Amy Sedaris. Maria Banford's memoir, right now I'm reading, also extraordinary. So there, there's four that I, that I am now recommending.

AI assessment note: “so Nathaniel Philbrook's Heart of the Sea... Kate DiCamillo's, uh, The Tale of Despereaux”

Q Okay, so let's, let's transition to helping people in business learn all these skills and translate them to becoming better in their work. And maybe actually to add some stakes, what benefits do people get slash what problems do they run into? If they aren't great at storytelling versus if they learn the skill and can implement it at work, what, what happens? What good things come out of that?

A Well, if you don't tell stories as part of your business, whether you're looking for investment or speaking to your people or speaking to customers or clients, anything, if you're not telling stories, the good news is you're just like everybody else. The bad news is you're mediocre, just like everybody else, right? You're in a lane that everyone else is in, which means that you're going to be forgettable. I often say most communication in business is round, white, and flavorless, right? Intentionally so, because a lot of people are afraid to stand out. You know, when I try to get people to tell stories, you know, everyone loves the word storytelling in business. It's a huge buzzword. They love to think of themselves as storytellers, but when they come to me, they don't really want to be storytellers, because to be a storyteller means you have to separate yourself from the herd And in their mind, that risks them getting picked off, right? Getting picked off by some predator. But the all, the alternative is you're in the herd, which means you're forgettable. I mean, how many times have you gone to a conference, listened to someone speak, and by the time you're pulling into the driveway, you really can't remember anything that they said. My wife and I actually attended an educational conference recently. She's a teacher. I'm a teacher. There was a bunch of speakers. The first pers…

AI assessment note: “if you're not telling stories... The bad news is you're mediocre, just like everybody else”

Q to become a better communicator and storyteller in business. You've shared a few tidbits here. One is think of this personal inventory about yourself that makes you relatable. Try to share it in stories you tell and presentations and things like that. What else, what else can people do to become better storytellers in business? I know this is a big question, but let's see, let's see where it goes.

A Let's go back to the idea that in business, you have to accept the fact that nobody wants to hear anything you have to say. That is not accepted by most people, even after I say it. So once you understand that, and once you truly believe it, there's essentially four ways to keep people listening to you in any story, really, but especially in business, because really no one wants to listen to you in business. So the first is stakes, which we've really talked about already. You have to have stakes, you know, and every good product story and every good PowerPoint prison to everything. There are stakes and they're set out and exactly the way I've described all five of the stakes that I've described to you that I use in that story. Charity thief can also be used in every business story, every PowerPoint deck, every entrepreneur pitch, everything. So stakes is one of them. Another one we've talked about is surprise. I should absolutely be surprised in every talk that you give. Steve jobs was a master of it. We could just, we could look at one of his talks and I could show you how he planned it perfectly. Some others include suspense. So keeping an audience in suspense and often suspense leads to surprise. So mastering the ability to be suspenseful and then humor, like daring to be funny, which no one in corporate America can do. Everyone wants to be funny. Every person I've ever met …

AI assessment note: “there's essentially four ways to keep people listening to you in any story”

Q Okay. So I thought it'd be fun to start with maybe the most mind expanding takeaway I got from this book is this idea that all good stories are rooted in this 5:02 moment of someone's life. Can you just talk about this insight and maybe share an example to you to make this real?

A Sure. Uh, well, That is true. What you just said, which is essentially every story is about a singular moment. I call it five seconds. It can be 1:02. Honestly, it's a moment of either transformation, meaning sort of, I'm telling you a story about how I once used to be one kind of person and now I'm a new kind of person or more common is realization, which is I used to think something and then some stuff happened and now I think a new thing and those changes, they They take place sort of over time, or really what happens is it's an accumulation of events and feelings and thoughts that ultimately result in a singular moment where that flip actually happens, and I think that's true for almost everyone. It feels like it took a long time, but there really was 1:02 when you thought one thing, and then the next second when you thought the new thing, and the purpose of a story is essentially to bring that moment To the greatest clarity possible to the audience, so that the audience can sort of, in a way, experience that flip, that transformation or realization along with the storyteller. So, 98% of the story is the context to bring that singular moment into fruition, and that is true for stories that we tell out loud, stories we tell on the page, novels that I write, movies that I watch, television shows that I watch, all of the stories of the world that are worth hearing, and Truly, …

AI assessment note: “every story is about a singular moment. I call it five seconds.”

Q A positive mental attitude will be your key to success. Amazing. Final question. Maybe just to leave listeners with one tactical thing they can do to become better storytellers. What would that be?

A So two things should start every story you ever tell for the rest of your life. So you start with location. Where are you? Location activates imagination, right? If I say I'm standing in the kitchen, You've already automatically applied a thousand adjectives to my story. You see the kitchen with great clarity. You probably put me in your own kitchen or your parents' kitchen or a kitchen you see on TV. But if the particularities of the kitchen are relevant to the story, that's what I want you to do. I'm not interested in reproducing locations with some kind of visual accuracy in your brain. I want you to see a fully realized location. So I love location because it's one word that Comes imbued with a thousand adjectives. So you start with location, and you start with action, meaning something needs to be happening right away. Like literally, I am in a place, and I'm doing a thing. It indicates to the audience that you're actually going to tell something that's moving forward. It's why there's a big spaceship shooting of little spaceship in the opening of Star Wars. It's why, it's why there's a police officer chasing a guy across a roof. Something is already happening. We didn't start with You know, we didn't start with nonsense. We started with something happening that grabbed us right away. That's what people want from story. Also, if you're a person unlike me, which is to say a…

AI assessment note: “So two things should start every story you ever tell for the rest of your life.”

Q I got tingles listening to that story. For someone that's now motivated to try this, I know there's a template that we'll link to in the show notes where you give people, it's very simple, but I think seeing it will be helpful. But what's something someone could do tonight to start on this process and maybe set a habit to do? How do you actually go about doing this?

A Well, they have to start homework for life. And I have a Ted talk about it that I go on for 17 minutes about. So I suggest watching it because you'll just get more than what I just told you. And I think that's important. And you have to decide to do it every single day, even on the day when the best you have is a cookout, right? Uh, if that's all you got, that's, that's what you got, and you write it down. You have to have some faith, too, that it's going to happen over time. Remember, I started with 1.8, and now I'm up to 7.6, and that's over more than 12 years it takes for me to make that jump. So in the beginning, you're not going to be very good at it. You know, you're not going to see the right things, and that's just the way it is. If I go back to my original homework life, I see myself looking for stories, and you're not really looking for stories. You're just looking for moments that touch your heart, touch your mind. That's all you're really hoping for, and some of those will become stories. So you gotta start homework for life right away. And then if you can just find some people who are willing to listen and begin telling some stories, that's really helpful, because most people are unwilling to listen. There's not a lot of good listeners in the world. Everyone says they're a great listener, but active listening is a skill that most people do not possess in any way wh…

AI assessment note: “You're just looking for moments that touch your heart, touch your mind.”