The Exchanges

Q read somewhere that you've interviewed over 2500 people over the course of your career. And so kind of going back to the beginning of a career, or at least getting a job, what have you found is most helpful in standing out as a candidate when you're interviewing and just essentially getting hired? What advice do you have for people that may be going through an interview process right now?

A There's a lot of evidence that suggests that, um, the number one and two factors in any interview are appearance and enthusiasm. And it doesn't mean you have to be beautiful, but, you know, show up somewhere looking like you're interested in the job, not in your pajamas. And most importantly, be enthusiastic. People want to work with people that want to work with them. So if you seem very judgmental of the company and like, you have to sell me on it. You're going to turn them off. I look at every interview of whether or not I really want this job. I might've decided I don't want the job. I still want the offer. And so I come to any interview I do leaned in and talking about how excited I am to be a part of this opportunity and what I know about the company. Beyond those cosmetics, the biggest thing I see particularly higher levels Is people talk about what they have done, but not why it mattered. They don't talk about the impact. See, a leader is not hiring someone to just do work. They're hiring someone because they have a problem or a need. And so if you can show them, look, here's the things I've done that have made a difference. Here's the things I've done that have helped. My past employers where I've had an impact. So I didn't just do work. That makes you a worker. Someone who has an impact is more of a leader and leader doesn't need to mean people manager, just a higher …

AI assessment note: “number one and two factors in any interview are appearance and enthusiasm.”

Q Well, I will say sometimes they keep growing. So this isn't necessarily the terminal point for the final position. Yeah. Okay. So for people that haven't read this post or maybe for folks that have, and maybe could use a refresher, let's spend a little time here. Could you just briefly describe this, this idea of the magic loop that you wrote about?

A Yeah, absolutely. So the magic loop is how to grow your career in almost any circumstance, even with a somewhat difficult manager. It does assume that you're working in some environment, uh, you know, normally as an entrepreneur or with a boss, but the basic idea of the magic loop is five steps and they're very easy. The first one is you have to be doing your current job well. It's not possible to really grow your career if you're not considered at least performing at a solid level. Now it doesn't mean you have to be the star on the team at this point, but What you can't have is your boss wishing that you were different. Like, oh, you know, Ethan's not very good. So you have to talk to your manager and find out how you're doing and address any problems. So step one is do your job well. Then step two is ask your boss how you can help. You know, speaking as a manager, and I've talked to hundreds of managers, very few people go and ask their manager, what can I do to help you? What do you need? And so just asking sets you apart and it begins to build a relationship that we're on the same team, that I'm here as a part of your organization to make you successful, not just myself. Step three is whatever they say, do it. So, uh, you dig a big hole. If you say, well, uh, what could I do to help you? And they say, well, we really need someone to like take out the tray sheet today. And y…

AI assessment note: “the basic idea of the magic loop is five steps and they're very easy”

Q To give people a little bit of social proof, you mentioned some of the folks you've worked with on this. Can you share some stories or stats or anything to help people understand how helpful this ended up being to folks you've worked with?

A Yeah, absolutely. I'll, I'll tell one story from each end of the spectrum. And what I mean there is entry level people and then sort of high level executive leaders. I had, uh, an entry level person write me back and say, look, When I, when I learned about the magic lube, I was at a company and not doing very well. I started applying it. They offered me a 30,000 dollar raise and a bigger job. And I turned it down because I got hired at this other company that was offering me even more. And I went there and they've promoted me also. And he was one of the people who wrote in and said, You know, uh, his exact words were a year ago I was made redundant. So he's in the UK redundant is their word for, for laid off. A year ago I was made redundant. I got this first job and I got an offer for an increased salary. And then I got the second job and I got an increase when I joined that was even bigger. And he was in that situation of like, now I need to sort of slow down and digest all of that. On the complete other end, um, One of my, uh, best people I ever worked with joined my team at Amazon as what we would call an SDE two, which in Amazon is a level five employee. He grew with me kind of following this process to a senior engineer. Then he switched to management and ran a small team. Then he became a senior manager and he relocated with my, my organization. He opened a new office in …

AI assessment note: “I'll tell one story from each end of the spectrum.”

Q the lines of lessons, last question here, just what's something that you took away from the way you approached it that you shouldn't have, should have changed or should have done differently that you just you've done differently since, you know, obviously like, don't like you mentioned this idea of don't promise a date that you're not that certain you're gonna hit, I guess. Is there anything along those lines?

A I have two things here. First Amazon loved in the past, they love surprise launches. They love the idea of we're gonna be quiet, quiet, quiet, because basically it was a reaction, I think to Microsoft where they felt Microsoft always talked about what was coming and then pushed the dates back. And so there was this whole thing about vaporware and Amazon wanted to be the other way, which is we won't say anything and then it will just be there. The problem I came to say is the biggest thing I learned with surprise launches is that you're surprised by what doesn't work. And so I shifted the approach to let's do a lot of beta testing. We always Even if others don't agree quite and say, you're right. We're not going to have a surprise launch. Some of our beta testers, even if they sign NDAs are going to leak. And that's a, that's a better outcome than launching something that doesn't work. Uh, that's one lesson. The other lesson is this thing that broke. In front of Jeff Bezos. Ultimately, it was a new college graduate engineer who wrote that code. And he had been left alone to write Part of our user interface, but he had written it in such a way that it didn't scale. Now we didn't give him any help or oversight. We left him on his own because we were busy focusing on other pieces of the problem. And shortly after the disaster, he left the company. And the mistake I made was not rea…

AI assessment note: “I have two things here. First Amazon loved in the past, they love surprise launches.”

Q Awesome. I, my dog does not love chasing balls. I haven't had a reason to buy that, but I I've never thought about just the joy of flinging a ball really far. Do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to share with folks find useful in work or in life?

A I happen to be a Christian. And the motto that I think about the most is to whom much has been given from him, much will be required. And so I think a lot about what is my social responsibility? What, you know, I've been very lucky. I grew up on a farm in Ohio and I wasn't a farm boy. My father was a chemist, but I grew up You know, in like upper middle class settings, and I've ended up being extremely successful, able to retire from my job at 50 to kind of coach and teach. What do I owe to pay forward? So those words are, uh, you know, uh, obviously ancient, uh, spiritual texts, but they're the ones I take away and think the most about. What's my responsibility?

AI assessment note: “the motto that I think about the most is to whom much has been given”

Q in my career where I specifically did not want to get promoted. I was very happy where I was, and I just wanted to keep doing this awesome IC role. Is that something at all you see where people are just like, I'm good. I don't need to get it promoted. And then is this helpful in that in any way, or is it like not as big a deal?

A So first I reached a point in my career where I was no longer pursuing promotion either. And I wanted to do other things. And so I've lived that myself and I've used this same loop But I used it to go do what I wanted to say, this is now what I want. And how do we get there? How do we create a role where I'm adding value appropriate to my level, but I'm doing this other work that's fun. I moved into gaming and I really wanted to do that. Second, I think it is still helpful because there's something you want. Probably maybe you want to work on different kinds of projects, or maybe you want to work with a different higher performance team, or maybe you want to rebalance your life and say, Hey, I love what I'm doing. But I, you know, uh, how can I be a star performer for you, but within these boundaries? So, you know, if you, if you truly have the perfect job is just as it is, You may not need the magic loop, but I know so few people who feel like, nope, there's absolutely nothing I could improve about my role.

AI assessment note: “Second, I think it is still helpful because there's something you want.”