The Exchanges

Q I think the Salesforce example is an awesome example of your approach. If they were thinking about it in the old way, what would Salesforce have done? How would they have pitched it? If not for everyone's moving to the cloud, you're dumb if you're using desktop software.

A Well, I think they would have just come out and said like, oh, you know, hey, I mean, CRM, by the way, was already a category. I mean, there were already, you know, Siebel was the huge giant of that space. Uh, there were already even companies doing it online, you know, doing it through the web. And so they would have come and said, oh, you know, we're easier to install than, you know, faster to get up and running than Siebel. Or we have this much functionality compared to what I think it was, was it Net Sweet or some early, uh, early Salesforce-like thing that was out there. They would have done these sort of comparison things. And, and, you know, Benny, I mean, he's, he's a pretty proud guy. I think he did still say like, Hey, we're the number ones here, but that wasn't what they led with. They, they led with this, this story about this fundamental paradigm shift and You know, are you in or are you not in? And what they did was instead of just saying like, Hey, we're better than they, they said, Hey, all those others, those, those Siebels, they're part of that old game. You want to play that software game? Be my guest, go, go buy Siebel. And, you know, of course we know how it played out.

AI assessment note: “they would have come and said, oh, you know, we're easier to install”

Q You talked about Zura and the post you wrote, and I imagine many people listening are like, oh shit, this is the guy that wrote that post that everyone's always sharing with me about how to make a deck. And I wanted to ask how impactful was that one piece of writing for you and your career, just like as a tangent?

A I had written some other posts on medium in particular medium, uh, medium has changed quite a bit, but back then I found that I could write stuff there and get really like a lot of people who were interested in what I was interested in would sort of come in and, and, uh, and create some noise about it. So I was already doing this kind of work for a couple of years, but that post immediately got something like two million views. Around the world. And I started getting, uh, inquiries from teams all over the world. And it was, I think what really allowed me to say, no, okay, I could do this work that, that CEOs would budget a line item for this. Because I think If you really understand that post, it's not really about a sales deck. It's really about this story that TN and that, you know, the CEO is telling everywhere and that, you know, is showing up in the sales deck and structuring it that way.

AI assessment note: “that post immediately got something like two million views. Around the world.”

Q So you're quite known as someone that helps CEOs optimize their pitch, their story, their strategy, which we're going to get deep into. But before we do that, can you just give us a little glimpse into how you found your way into this line of work?

A So I started as a coder. I was a computer science major undergrad. A friend and I had an idea for an app. So this was like during the.com years. So Windows app, and we coded a little prototype and we started, we put it out there. We started getting some users and we thought, okay, maybe we can get some investment. So of the two of us, I spoke English fluently. So we decided, okay, I'll write the investor pitch. So I wrote the pitch, we sent it out and the reaction was really bad. And One VC wrote back and said, listen, I rate every plan I get on a scale of one to 10, and yours is a one. And the next to the one he wrote, uh, in parentheses, worst, in case we thought like maybe that was the top of his rating scale. Uh, yeah, brutal. And, uh, But then lower down. So this was back when they would like, you'd print, send the hard copy of the plan and they might mail it back with comments written in. And he had written in not a compelling story. And a few weeks later, I'm walking by this Barnes and Noble and there's a sign in the window and it says for anyone who wants to tell a compelling story. Okay. That's me. And there's an arrow that's pointing to these books and they turned out to be screenwriting books. And I didn't know anything about this. So I started reading these books and It strikes me like a movie is a pitch. Like, you know, what is Star Wars a pitch for? It's a pitch f…

AI assessment note: “So I started as a coder. I was a computer science major undergrad.”

Q Excellent. The best version of this. What are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?

A One of the books that I read initially in that from that Barnes and Noble, it was story by Robert McKee. I think a lot of people know about it who are sort of interested in story stuff, but it's, it's kind of a Bible of people who are doing like screenwriting and stuff. Pretty much. If you know anyone who's in Hollywood who are like thought about going to Hollywood, like they, they, they know about this book. Uh, I love a book called Out of Sheer Rage. It's really not about what I do or anything, but it's, uh, the author is Jeff Dyer. Jeff, he's a, he's, he's written a lot of books that are kind of essay memoir. And this is a book about him trying to write a book about D.H. Lawrence. So it's all about procrastinating and like, oh, like him, I'm supposed to write this book. I think I'm gonna, I'm about to go on a trip somewhere. Should I bring the collected works of D.H. Lawrence with me on the trip? Cause that'll help me Start the book, but maybe I shouldn't because it's not gonna, then I could come back refreshed without having, you know, basically it's all that. It's all this sort of like in the head. I just really enjoy that book.

AI assessment note: “it was story by Robert McKee... I love a book called Out of Sheer Rage”

Q Is the strategic narrative framework right for essentially any company or is there like a sweet spot? I noticed most of the companies you've been talking about are B to B SaaS. So I don't know, maybe like if there's a spectrum of perfect fit for strategic narrative framework and then like not a fit at all, what's like, what's along that spectrum?

A Yeah, well, you can see it. I mean, it takes a little time. I mean, uh, to tell this story, uh, and it's a kind of, you were kind of framing it a little bit and we're telling it in lots of different channels, right? So I think it does really, um, play well in sort of like this enterprise sales context, because, uh, also we have a group buyer there. So it's not just one person who's, you know, doing some research and like, there's, there's like this whole group has to sort of have a, A united, a uniting story. So I think you're right that in noticing that the companies that this tends to, you know, resonate with tend to be B to B enterprise sales, uh, technology, I think, because often the product is very complicated, you know, that arrogant doctor stuff. You know, comes from an age when the things people were selling were like products on shelves that didn't change much, you know, cans of soup at the supermarket or, or like a car in the dealership, even software back then, you know, shrink wrapped in a box doesn't change. Um, soft B to B software, you know, this stuff is changing by the minute. And does it even make sense to make a claim to say like, oh, we have these features and they have those features, therefore we're better. I mean, like, Does that, can you even, does that make any sense? That said, you know, hey, I was looking for, um, I was looking for like a, a sports w…

AI assessment note: “it does really, um, play well in sort of like this enterprise sales context”

Q I need to do this. I haven't spent enough time on this. Something's not working. This could be a huge unlock for us. What are the first couple steps they could take to start to figure this out? And I imagine at some point it's like, go talk to Andy. He'll help you through this. Is there stuff you can do on your own? How do you go about it?

A Well, a lot of folks have, have emailed me, uh, over the years, like, Hey, well, I told you before there were some who emailed me like, Hey, tried it. Didn't work. But many, many more have have emailed me. Hey, I tried it. It did work. Thank you. And so, yeah, just try to lay out that structure and try it. I mean, even when I work with teams, I, I, I adapt what, what my people might call sort of lean approach. Like I want to get that thing out there into sales calls. You know, we're not rolling it out to the whole sales team right away, but getting it out into some sales calls and get a sense like, Hey, is this resonating? Are people like giving the nods? Ideally, by the way, one way I look to test it, you know, is, is it working? Is like, when we talk about this shift and the stakes and the, you know, Do they stick, do they kind of say like, yeah, let me tell you how that's playing out for us. And, or, or in my, yes, I'm seeing that. Let me, uh, sometimes I'll literally, I'll, I'll train salespeople to ask them that question. Like, am I crazy or are you seeing this? And, and what did they say? And, you know, you can usually tell like if they're in and it's qualitative, but I, I really liked that kind of, kind of testing, uh, to see if it's working. And I think anybody can do that.

AI assessment note: “getting it out into some sales calls and get a sense like, Hey, is this resonating”