The Exchanges

Q I love that. I think we have that same kettle. I also drink tea during every episode. So we're on the same page. Next question. Do you have a favorite life motto that you often think about, come back to share with friends or family and work or in life?

A It is definitely not a motto. I feel like I know people have mottos, and I'm so impressed. I'm like, you know, uh, you know what you are, you know what you need. I am not that person. But I have a piece of advice that someone gave me very early in my career. Actually, it was Chamath. He said, you can either have more energy or less ambition. And I was like, whew, that's a little harsh, but also, like, really true. And I think about that, it's another of my Roman Empires, I think about it all the time. Where I'm like, okay, if I want to have this kind of impact, I'm gonna have to do the work, I'm gonna have to try new things, I have to feel uncomfortable. And you know, sometimes, I don't want to do those things. I don't want to do all of that work, and then I can't be mad if I'm not having the impact. Like, those two just have to go together. I also have to get lucky in all these different ways, but like, The two have to go together, and that's been just like a good governor a little bit of how I, how I think about what I'm putting together.

AI assessment note: “He said, you can either have more energy or less ambition.”

Q year or two, and then they're like, ah, this sucks. The founder just tells me what to do. And then what's the point of this role? And it's so frustrating. I'm curious just what you've learned about, at least so far, about working with someone like that as a CPO and not just being this like middle person between what the founder wants to do, what the team is building.

A Yeah, I mean, this is gonna sound so naive, but I literally didn't know how important it was for me to have such a great relationship with the CEO. Like, because I, I always had great, you know, I was lucky I had great relationships with a lot of people at my previous jobs. I was like, oh, of course, like, it's gonna be fine. Everyone's gonna let me do what I want, whatever. And I think I just got really lucky because Max is an amazing CEO who's also super growth mindset and super open. To, like, talking over ideas, even when they involve a lot of change. So, like, you know, when I was onboarding, one of the things I always like to do is write, like, uh, like a list of observations. I go out and talk to, I have one-on-ones with, like, a lot of people, and I write, like, here's the themes that I'm hearing, here's what's going well, here's what's not going well, and that's, like, a way for me to both share what I'm seeing and, like, build some credibility and trust that way, but also for people to give me feedback and be like, oh, you're wrong about this, just so I can kind of correct my, um, starting Like, point of knowledge. And with Max, I also wrote, like, a parallel document of hot takes. So, like, once a quarter or so for the first year, I would write a document that was just like, hey, for sake of provocation, if we wanted to fundamentally change a few things, here's ideas…

AI assessment note: “I literally didn't know how important it was for me to have such a great relationship”

Q I asked you about your goal for our conversation today, you said the most amazing thing, which I love. You said that your goal is to be as authentic as possible and to show that people can be pretty messy and imperfect at times, yet still be very successful. I love that so much. Let's definitely try to do this. Is there anything else you want to add on that?

A Yeah, I mean, maybe, maybe I'll just say like a couple more words on that. Actually, I feel like when I was kind of coming up, like, When I looked at people who were successful, they seemed to have everything figured out. Especially the women. They were all, like, super women, where they, like, responded to every email in 10 seconds. They didn't seem to sleep. They, like, always wore high heels. They were just, like, perfect. And I, I was just like, oh, I guess I'm never gonna be successful. Like, that is, that is not me. I, I love to sleep. I, like, waste time doing absurd things all the time. And, like, I'll tell you how glamorous my lifestyle is. I'm currently working out of my bathroom. Like I'm talking to you from my bathroom, which is where I work from, because I love my house. It's a great house. Wasn't meant for work from home, three kids, two parents, remote work. Um, and it was just the place with the most closing doors between me and my children when the pandemic started. And so it, it just like took me a while to realize that actually it's all fine. Like, No one's got it fully figured out. You never know how someone else is living. Like most of us are winging it and learning as we're going and like learning through trial and error. And like, that's, it's all, it's all normal. It's all fine. And I can do it and you can do it narrow.

AI assessment note: “I'm currently working out of my bathroom... No one's got it fully figured out.”

Q Thanks for sharing that. Do you think that was the right approach? Uh, going and kind of indexing far to the other end and then kind of realizing that maybe that's too far, or do you think you would have done things differently looking back?

A Yeah, this, it's kind of one of my Roman empires. Like, I think about this every so often, like way too much, I think. Um, especially cause I talked to other senior women who received similar feedback and chose not to act on it or did act on it and like, you know, what happened to, uh, their paths were different. I think where I landed is like, I wouldn't give that feedback to someone else. And the way I do give that feedback actually, cause I think there is a lot of really useful Information in that. The way I do give that feedback is you do need to be able to work with a broader range of people, and the way to do that is to expand your tool sets. Like, you're not going to make yourself smaller, you're not going to be any less of who you are, but you are going to build new tools so that, you know, new keys to unlock new different kinds of doors, and that is only going to make you bigger and more powerful and more expansive. But the end outcome is the same, is that you can work with more different styles of people, more different styles of problems.

AI assessment note: “I think where I landed is like, I wouldn't give that feedback to someone else.”