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Feb 21, 2023 · 54m · founders-journal

Takeaways from Rihanna’s Career & How to Test Your Business Ideas

Alex Lieberman · 27m spoken Jesse Pujji · 21m spoken
0:00 / 0:00

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In episode 25 of The Crazy Ones, co-hosts Alex Lieberman and Jesse Pujji break down the business empire and marketing genius of Rihanna, share actionable frameworks for validating startup ideas with minimal capital, and debate the merits of company-wide financial transparency.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Alex holds 56.9% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

Alex as informed peer 5.7 Guest teaching 3.5 Guest disagreement 2.0 Alex pushing back 2.0
05100:0015:0030:0045:000:48–4:46 · Alex as informed peer 4/10 Founder Updates: Kahani Trials, Skiing, and The Plunge Alex and Jesse catch up on personal updates, with Jesse talking about Kahani customer trials and skiing, while Alex discusses manufacturing delays and marketing preparations for The Plunge. The banter is friendly with light teasing about ski outfits and startup fears.4:47–7:17 · Alex as informed peer 3/10 Episode Overview and Super Bowl Halftime Banter Jesse explains his shift in NFL fandom, teaching Alex about the Rams' contentious departure from St. Louis and their subsequent legal settlement. Alex admits he was completely unaware of the 40-page paper and settlement.7:18–21:46 · Alex as informed peer 8/10 The Business of Rihanna: Ownership, Inclusivity, and Reinvention Alex presents exhaustive research on Rihanna's business empire, citing specific revenue figures, partnership structures with LVMH, and earned media valuations. Jesse actively engages and compares Rihanna's equity ownership to Michael Jordan's Nike licensing model.21:50–37:40 · Alex as informed peer 6/10 Frameworks for Validating Startup Ideas: B2B vs. B2C Both hosts explore validation frameworks for B2B and B2C startups, sharing personal examples from Kahani, Ampush, and The Plunge. Jesse outlines his stage-gate approach while Alex shares how he validated a startup tool review concept through Twitter engagement.37:41–46:53 · Alex as informed peer 7/10 Practical Testing Models: Smoke Tests, Content Ladders, and Scrappiness Alex discusses the smoke test and the content ladder concept, illustrating them with case studies like Buffer and bestselling authors. Jesse provides critical nuance regarding conversion benchmarks and overcoming founder ego to test scrappy products.46:54–54:14 · Alex as informed peer 6/10 Startup AMA: The Pros and Cons of Sharing Company Profitability The conversation turns to an AMA question regarding financial transparency within companies. Jesse forcefully rejects Alex's concern that employees will demand higher wages if they see large profits, arguing instead for market-rate labor conversations and cultural alignment.0:48–4:46 · Guest teaching 2/10 Founder Updates: Kahani Trials, Skiing, and The Plunge Alex and Jesse catch up on personal updates, with Jesse talking about Kahani customer trials and skiing, while Alex discusses manufacturing delays and marketing preparations for The Plunge. The banter is friendly with light teasing about ski outfits and startup fears.4:47–7:17 · Guest teaching 4/10 Episode Overview and Super Bowl Halftime Banter Jesse explains his shift in NFL fandom, teaching Alex about the Rams' contentious departure from St. Louis and their subsequent legal settlement. Alex admits he was completely unaware of the 40-page paper and settlement.7:18–21:46 · Guest teaching 2/10 The Business of Rihanna: Ownership, Inclusivity, and Reinvention Alex presents exhaustive research on Rihanna's business empire, citing specific revenue figures, partnership structures with LVMH, and earned media valuations. Jesse actively engages and compares Rihanna's equity ownership to Michael Jordan's Nike licensing model.21:50–37:40 · Guest teaching 4/10 Frameworks for Validating Startup Ideas: B2B vs. B2C Both hosts explore validation frameworks for B2B and B2C startups, sharing personal examples from Kahani, Ampush, and The Plunge. Jesse outlines his stage-gate approach while Alex shares how he validated a startup tool review concept through Twitter engagement.37:41–46:53 · Guest teaching 4/10 Practical Testing Models: Smoke Tests, Content Ladders, and Scrappiness Alex discusses the smoke test and the content ladder concept, illustrating them with case studies like Buffer and bestselling authors. Jesse provides critical nuance regarding conversion benchmarks and overcoming founder ego to test scrappy products.46:54–54:14 · Guest teaching 5/10 Startup AMA: The Pros and Cons of Sharing Company Profitability The conversation turns to an AMA question regarding financial transparency within companies. Jesse forcefully rejects Alex's concern that employees will demand higher wages if they see large profits, arguing instead for market-rate labor conversations and cultural alignment.0:48–4:46 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Founder Updates: Kahani Trials, Skiing, and The Plunge Alex and Jesse catch up on personal updates, with Jesse talking about Kahani customer trials and skiing, while Alex discusses manufacturing delays and marketing preparations for The Plunge. The banter is friendly with light teasing about ski outfits and startup fears.4:47–7:17 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Episode Overview and Super Bowl Halftime Banter Jesse explains his shift in NFL fandom, teaching Alex about the Rams' contentious departure from St. Louis and their subsequent legal settlement. Alex admits he was completely unaware of the 40-page paper and settlement.7:18–21:46 · Guest disagreement 1/10 The Business of Rihanna: Ownership, Inclusivity, and Reinvention Alex presents exhaustive research on Rihanna's business empire, citing specific revenue figures, partnership structures with LVMH, and earned media valuations. Jesse actively engages and compares Rihanna's equity ownership to Michael Jordan's Nike licensing model.21:50–37:40 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Frameworks for Validating Startup Ideas: B2B vs. B2C Both hosts explore validation frameworks for B2B and B2C startups, sharing personal examples from Kahani, Ampush, and The Plunge. Jesse outlines his stage-gate approach while Alex shares how he validated a startup tool review concept through Twitter engagement.37:41–46:53 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Practical Testing Models: Smoke Tests, Content Ladders, and Scrappiness Alex discusses the smoke test and the content ladder concept, illustrating them with case studies like Buffer and bestselling authors. Jesse provides critical nuance regarding conversion benchmarks and overcoming founder ego to test scrappy products.46:54–54:14 · Guest disagreement 4/10 Startup AMA: The Pros and Cons of Sharing Company Profitability The conversation turns to an AMA question regarding financial transparency within companies. Jesse forcefully rejects Alex's concern that employees will demand higher wages if they see large profits, arguing instead for market-rate labor conversations and cultural alignment.0:48–4:46 · Alex pushing back 1/10 Founder Updates: Kahani Trials, Skiing, and The Plunge Alex and Jesse catch up on personal updates, with Jesse talking about Kahani customer trials and skiing, while Alex discusses manufacturing delays and marketing preparations for The Plunge. The banter is friendly with light teasing about ski outfits and startup fears.4:47–7:17 · Alex pushing back 1/10 Episode Overview and Super Bowl Halftime Banter Jesse explains his shift in NFL fandom, teaching Alex about the Rams' contentious departure from St. Louis and their subsequent legal settlement. Alex admits he was completely unaware of the 40-page paper and settlement.7:18–21:46 · Alex pushing back 2/10 The Business of Rihanna: Ownership, Inclusivity, and Reinvention Alex presents exhaustive research on Rihanna's business empire, citing specific revenue figures, partnership structures with LVMH, and earned media valuations. Jesse actively engages and compares Rihanna's equity ownership to Michael Jordan's Nike licensing model.21:50–37:40 · Alex pushing back 2/10 Frameworks for Validating Startup Ideas: B2B vs. B2C Both hosts explore validation frameworks for B2B and B2C startups, sharing personal examples from Kahani, Ampush, and The Plunge. Jesse outlines his stage-gate approach while Alex shares how he validated a startup tool review concept through Twitter engagement.37:41–46:53 · Alex pushing back 2/10 Practical Testing Models: Smoke Tests, Content Ladders, and Scrappiness Alex discusses the smoke test and the content ladder concept, illustrating them with case studies like Buffer and bestselling authors. Jesse provides critical nuance regarding conversion benchmarks and overcoming founder ego to test scrappy products.46:54–54:14 · Alex pushing back 4/10 Startup AMA: The Pros and Cons of Sharing Company Profitability The conversation turns to an AMA question regarding financial transparency within companies. Jesse forcefully rejects Alex's concern that employees will demand higher wages if they see large profits, arguing instead for market-rate labor conversations and cultural alignment.

speaking balance: gold is Alex, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · Alex 36% · guest 64%0:00 · Alex 36% · guest 64%3:00 · Alex 86% · guest 14%3:00 · Alex 86% · guest 14%6:00 · Alex 61.8% · guest 38.2%6:00 · Alex 61.8% · guest 38.2%9:00 · Alex 89.9% · guest 10.1%9:00 · Alex 89.9% · guest 10.1%12:00 · Alex 89.6% · guest 10.4%12:00 · Alex 89.6% · guest 10.4%15:00 · Alex 51.9% · guest 48.1%15:00 · Alex 51.9% · guest 48.1%18:00 · Alex 75.4% · guest 24.6%18:00 · Alex 75.4% · guest 24.6%21:00 · Alex 33% · guest 67%21:00 · Alex 33% · guest 67%24:00 · Alex 88% · guest 12%24:00 · Alex 88% · guest 12%27:00 · Alex 12.5% · guest 87.5%27:00 · Alex 12.5% · guest 87.5%30:00 · Alex 3.7% · guest 96.3%30:00 · Alex 3.7% · guest 96.3%33:00 · Alex 91.6% · guest 8.4%33:00 · Alex 91.6% · guest 8.4%36:00 · Alex 51.1% · guest 48.9%36:00 · Alex 51.1% · guest 48.9%39:00 · Alex 67.5% · guest 32.5%39:00 · Alex 67.5% · guest 32.5%42:00 · Alex 55.4% · guest 44.6%42:00 · Alex 55.4% · guest 44.6%45:00 · Alex 44.6% · guest 55.4%45:00 · Alex 44.6% · guest 55.4%48:00 · Alex 56.8% · guest 43.2%48:00 · Alex 56.8% · guest 43.2%51:00 · Alex 23.4% · guest 76.6%51:00 · Alex 23.4% · guest 76.6%54:00 · Alex 90% · guest 10%54:00 · Alex 90% · guest 10%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 50:15 Pushing back on salary transparency fears

Jesse directly challenges Alex's concern that employees will demand raises after seeing company profits, arguing founders need to have mature conversations about market rates.

 Hardest push from Alex ▶ 53:26 Public company comparison on margins

Alex pushes back on the risk of client backlash over disclosed margins by pointing out that public companies openly report massive profits without losing customers if the product is differentiated.

 Biggest teaching moment ▶ 6:00 St. Louis Rams departure history

Jesse surprises Alex with facts about the St. Louis Rams' defamatory 40-page exit paper and the resulting billion-dollar settlement.

 Alex holds their own ▶ 12:14 In-depth breakdown of Fenty Beauty economics

Alex demonstrates commanding preparation by breaking down Fenty's 50-50 joint venture structure with LVMH, estimated revenue multiples, and market percentage of LVMH's cosmetics arm.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicAlex as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementAlex pushing backWhy
Founder Updates: Kahani Trials, Skiing, and The Plunge 4221 Alex and Jesse catch up on personal updates, with Jesse talking about Kahani customer trials and skiing, while Alex discusses manufacturing delays and marketing preparations for The Plunge. The banter is friendly with light teasing about ski outfits and startup fears.
Episode Overview and Super Bowl Halftime Banter 3411 Jesse explains his shift in NFL fandom, teaching Alex about the Rams' contentious departure from St. Louis and their subsequent legal settlement. Alex admits he was completely unaware of the 40-page paper and settlement.
The Business of Rihanna: Ownership, Inclusivity, and Reinvention 8212 Alex presents exhaustive research on Rihanna's business empire, citing specific revenue figures, partnership structures with LVMH, and earned media valuations. Jesse actively engages and compares Rihanna's equity ownership to Michael Jordan's Nike licensing model.
Frameworks for Validating Startup Ideas: B2B vs. B2C 6422 Both hosts explore validation frameworks for B2B and B2C startups, sharing personal examples from Kahani, Ampush, and The Plunge. Jesse outlines his stage-gate approach while Alex shares how he validated a startup tool review concept through Twitter engagement.
Practical Testing Models: Smoke Tests, Content Ladders, and Scrappiness 7422 Alex discusses the smoke test and the content ladder concept, illustrating them with case studies like Buffer and bestselling authors. Jesse provides critical nuance regarding conversion benchmarks and overcoming founder ego to test scrappy products.
Startup AMA: The Pros and Cons of Sharing Company Profitability 6544 The conversation turns to an AMA question regarding financial transparency within companies. Jesse forcefully rejects Alex's concern that employees will demand higher wages if they see large profits, arguing instead for market-rate labor conversations and cultural alignment.

Statements from this episode (10)

Assertion Supported
Lieberman: $1.6B of Rihanna's $1.8B net worth comes from Fenty businesses
“How she made the vast majority of her wealth, 1.8 billion dollars in net worth. I believe one point Six of it is from her two businesses, Fenty Beauty and Savage Fenty.”
Alex Lieberman Feb 21, 2023 ▶ 11:00
Assertion Partly supported
Lieberman: Fenty Beauty hit $550M revenue and $2.8B valuation in 2018
“And she did by 2018. So a year after it launched, It was doing five hundred fifty million dollars in revenue. Five hundred fifty million in revenue in 2018. And at that time, it was the valuation of Fenty was reported at 2.8 billion”
Alex Lieberman Feb 21, 2023 ▶ 12:05
Prediction Not checkable as stated
Lieberman: Fenty will outlast Rihanna and lose association with her
“Like I believe Fenty will be known as a brand long beyond Rihanna and people won't associate it with Rihanna in the future. To do that, you really need to create a brand that's truly differentiated.”
Alex Lieberman Feb 21, 2023 ▶ 13:36
Insight
Lieberman: Creator brands must become standalone movements to outgrow founders
“Creator brands can be big, but to truly have them grow outside of the person themselves, it has to be a movement in itself.”
Alex Lieberman Feb 21, 2023 ▶ 14:36
Disclosure
Lieberman spent $20,000 developing backyard game The Plunge
“So I've spent 20,000 dollars on the game so far. 12,000 of that is R&D. 8000 is an agency that's helping with me with my Kickstarter launch.”
Alex Lieberman Feb 21, 2023 ▶ 25:21
Insight
Pujji: Validating B2B startups is easier than B2C via direct pitching
“And so that's the one thing about B to B that I think is beautiful is you can just get on the phone and start pitching people. You see their reactions, you get their feedback. It's in some ways it's way easier than B to C.”
Jesse Pujji Feb 21, 2023 ▶ 31:34
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Pujji: FoundersCard allegedly generates eight-figure revenue with 80% EBITDA margins
“And so that business allegedly, rumor has it, does like eight figures in top line and 80% EBITDA margin.”
Jesse Pujji Feb 21, 2023 ▶ 36:20
Disclosure
Pujji spent $500 to $1,000 in ad tests to validate 'Unbloat' name
“In my case, what we did was we looked a little bit at nominal email signup, but what we were actually doing was testing for brands. And that was like, let's call it a brand name. This let's, you know, and that was our way of figuring out. ... So we had before …”
Jesse Pujji Feb 21, 2023 ▶ 39:12
Assertion Supported
Lieberman: Ankur Nagpal validated Ocho Wealth using an intro-offer tweet thread
“And the way he got validation for this business is he posted a tweet thread about a friend's business that does solo for one case. And he described what the solo for one K is. And then in his CTA, he said, if you want an intro to my friend, let me know. His fr…”
Alex Lieberman Feb 21, 2023 ▶ 40:16
Disclosure
Pujji: Ampush shifted from sharing revenue to EBITDA after Red Ventures deal
“In Ampush, we were focused on revenue growth for the first five years, and man, everyone knew our revenue every day. I knew it. It was in channels. It was talked about, and then when Red Ventures invested, they were like, guys, screw revenue. We don't care abo…”
Jesse Pujji Feb 21, 2023 ▶ 51:34
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